The 5:2 thread number 39 - Chocolate-guzzling is NOT wanking: It should only be done in public! Learn healthy habits with our friendly 5:2 / IF support group

[BetsyBell]

The continuing thread for those of us following the 5:2 fast or other forms of fasting such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8.

The 5:2 diet was featured on Horizon in August 2012 and essentially requires you to fast for 2 non-consecutive days per week. The other 5 days, you can eat normally - or approximately your Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE - see explanation below). 4:3 is the same except you fast on 3 days in the week. Alternate-day fasting (ADF) is just how it sounds; you fast every other day. 16:8 is another form where you stick to only eating in an 8 hour window each day, therefore fasting for 16 hours each day.

By "fasting", we mean that we keep our calorie consumption very low; around 500 calories on average for a woman, 600 for a man, on those days.

You'll find on these threads we use a number of acronyms. If you're new to the threads, or Mumsnet in general, they might not make much sense.

WOE/WOL = Way Of Eating/Way Of Life. We use this term instead of "diet" as many of us see this as something to do in the long term.

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a website or app many use for keeping track of the number of calories they're eating.

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, quantifies the number of calories you burn in a day. This measure is best estimated by scaling your Basal Metabolic Rate to your level of activity. TDEE is critical in tailoring your nutrition plan to desired fitness goals. Here is a link to a TDEE calculator to help you figure out how many calories you should be eating in a day.

NFD = Non fast day

NSV/LSV = Non scale victory/Lifestyle (change) victory

Michael Mosley has a website to accompany his book on the subject. Please go check it out, as he's the whole reason most of us are here!

Lurkers and new starters: please just jump in and post - you'll find a lot of support here and we’re a friendly bunch.

Here is a list of links to get you started with this way of eating. Please let us know if you find a new article or some other information online:

Other Threads
All our previous threads can be found by browsing through the fasting section of the site.

Tips and Links : Another thread which breadandwine has started is a good resource for some of the tips and links that get lost in these big threads. In addition to sharing links, we try to condense some of our top tips for fasting there. Keep in mind, we all do this differently, so these are just tips, not rules. This might be a good place to catch up with us if you're feeling a bit lost!

Inspirational: eatriskier’s thread has some lovely inspiring stories which are worth checking out if you want some motivation to get started or keep going through a plateau. Please add your own too.

Recipes: frenchfancy has a recipe thread over here, please post any low-calorie recipes there so they don't get lost in these bigger threads!

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has an incredibly informative and helpful exercise and fitness thread for discussion and advice on combining 5:2 with an exercise regime.

Maintaining: If you've been at this a while and are moving on to maintaining your goal weight, there is a thread here to discuss that.

Other links
This is a BBC article regarding Michael Mosley's findings, which was featured on Horizon - link to that programme here.

This Telegraph article comments on the diet and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley himself, very informative if you're just starting.

This blog post gives some of the scientific explanation for why this way of eating helps you to not only lose weight, but improve your all-around health.

This link nicely demonstrates that there are many body ‘right’ body shapes and types, because what we are actually aiming for is low body fat for fitness and health.

A study discussed here gives commentary specifically addressing the effect of this diet on obese people (both men and women), with regard to both health and weight loss. ("After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4 cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant.) it also mentions "Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%).")

Something to consider if you are currently your ideal BMI: this article appears to suggest the benefits for women at a lower BMI might not be seeing the same health benefits that are found on men at their ideal BMI. (Though anecdotal evidence from these long-running threads may suggest otherwise…)

A BIG THANK YOU to all who have been contributing. Most of us are learning this way of eating as we go along. All of the links above have been posted by others in our previous threads, and they've been very helpful.

A HUGE THANK YOU to Greeneggsandnicht for putting together all this info and resources into one concise OP text, much appreciated by so many 5:2ers!

Come join us, and tell us about your experiences with this way of life!

And lastly, a few FAQs/Healthy tips :

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• Hot drinks: No limits on tea or coffee any day, just note any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Old hands skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar, artificial sweeteners, fizzy drinks, junk food. A few treats per week are good though! Aim to average TDEE over NFDs each week, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily.
• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, or ill, even a bad cold. When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So eat to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks.
• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss if you you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat. HIIT works well with 5:2/IF.

I used to have a bit of an issue with bingeing and to he honest, it's one of my concerns with this woe. I think you are supposed to eat to appetite on a nfd rather than calorie count, I'm aiming to do this because I want to give myself permission to eat all foods - in the hope the appeal of them diminishes and I stop overdoing it. I think there's a real danger with IF that you think you can over eat on a nfd because you'll be able to undo the damage on a fd: that way bad shit lies!

I'm planning to stay higher protein, and be very mindful of any sugar or wheat intake as those are foods I find hard to stop eating once I start. With reference to the thread title - I'm aiming to only eat sugar with witnesses!

I'm hoping the clarity of having two restrictive days will let me take the restrictions off the other days and just eat more mindfully.

Doris: I go biscuit first then caramel spiral too

Thanks for the advice folks.

@ the suggestion of only eating one chocolate bar. Something bizarre happens in my brain when I have chocolate, it's like a switch is flicked and I can't turn it back off :(I literally emptied cupboards last night. I woke up this morning feeling like I'd killed someone.

Chocolate Confessions
As folks may ^ judge from my name, I used to have a serious choc / sweet junk habit, typically a 4,000-cal^ choc binge twice weekly

Dreadful for future health prospects and totally childish

Although I'm a gym bunny, I went up to BMI 24.9 until, thank goodness, I started 5:2.
I'm down to 22.5 BMI again, but far more importantly, I no longer binge on sweet things and hardly ever eat junk.

What happened:

• On FDs, I soon had no desire for sweet junk
• Fasting made me want healthier, nutrient-dense food on NFDs too.
• For 6 weeks before Xmas, I restricted sugary junk to weekends and even then only moderate portions
• I now allow moderate portions of good quality sweet puds 2-3 days per week.
• This change is now permanent and sustainable.

Since October it's got a lot worse - the binges have been longer and more frantic

Can you tell me what you mean by 'frantic'? It sounds like me.

I think there's a real danger with IF that you think you can over eat on a nfd because you'll be able to undo the damage on a fd

So true. But in my experience, it's not entirely wishful thinking. A fd can repair a binge. At least that's what my scales say.

Fasting made me want healthier, nutrient-dense food on NFDs too.

I've found this too!

5:2 relies on a weekly calorie deficit from the 2 FDs
AND not eating back any of this deficit on NFDs
The latter means averaging TDEE over the 5 NFDs.

Many overweight folk became so because they ate well over TDEE and can't judge the correct amount of food their body burns.

We normally advise that if you think you can judge a sensible NFD intake, then start without counting. However, if you find you lose very slowly, or not at all, you will have to calorie count NFDs until you learn how to judge.

People with low TDEEs and / or who have a history of dieting will probably need to count.

Up to now I've measured it all by the scales! But my weight is well maintained as I usually exercise a lot, however I am often found eating whole packs of biscuits (or baking then eating while batches, virtually) then missing dinner to compensate.

I can maintain my weight like this but in terms if nutrients and health - and moreover, what my kids grow up seeing - I'm very keen to find a way of taking the guilt and frenzy out of enjoying something sweet and improve my health and nutrition. I'm watching myself carefully as I don't want to trigger any binge/purge mentality with 5:2. It's definitely something I can get caught in - but my aim here is not just weight but health, and learning to listen to signals of satiety and equally to cope with hunger without constantly grazing.

Years of fucked up eating habit to undo! Big ask

Ps can totally see others will count and benefit from it: I'm keeping a gentle eye but as I have a fairly high tdee of 2400 I'm trying not to be too precise about it all. Marathon not a sprint and all that

Scientific studies consistently find that weight is about the number of calories, not their quality.

However, health is a different matter.
So, FDs can compensate for NFD binges, but we hope folk learn healthier habits over time.

Many people do 5:2 for weight loss alone, but I think most of us who have done 5:2 for several months see it as a healthy WOL.

We all know, too, that it is so much easier to accidentally exceed TDEE via chocolate than via broccoli.

Just a quick check-in. NFD at 1500 cals here. I just wasn't hungry! Nipped to shop and someone told me they didn't recognise me as, and I quote, "You've lost a lot of weight!". I bought a quality magazine and no chocolate and went skipping out of the shop!

Re. binging...I used to be horrific! I'm better now though. I read 'Improve Your Mood With Food' and Paul McKenna's Emotional Eating programme, which have both helped. Also, has some counselling for another reason entirely, but the issue of binging was something we addressed too. It's a terrible cycle, but it can be broken.

Bat You sound like I used to be: Although I'm a middle-aged short-arse, my gym bunnying gives me a 2400 TDEE like yours.
It took months for me to become ready to kick my junk habit, probably because all the exercise meant I never actually got overweight and my BP etc remained ok.

Mazzle Great NSV - they didn't recognise the slimmer you !
And you didn't buy any choc, well done !

Wow, I had a lot to read through to catch up and I don't remember much of it!
I am having a fast day today and I did one on Monda ytoo, which I found relatively easy after pre-Af week last week, which was a bloody struggle. I think I have to be lenient on myself on FD's during the week before AF. I just feel so hungry and cravey.

I am another person who struggles to stay under TDEE on NFD's. Yesterday I thought I'd done really well, then I popped it all on My fitness pal only to find I had gone over. I am learning that it is when I succumb to having a snack here and there (e.g: biscuits at morning tea meeting yesterday) it seems to tip the balance. And clearly peanut butter (though satiating and a good source of protein) on my toast isn't a great idea as it adds 100 calories! Gasp! I love the stuff, but it is a calorie bomb.

I have soup ready for lunch and I'll probably even have a yoghurt, it still keeps it around 200 cals, then some fajita steak and salad for dinner. Yum, yum!

Anyone fasting today?

Great NSV MAzzle! Love it.

Bean Lots of folk like 40 cals for Options, as a soothing end to an FD.

Yes, Options have sweeteners, but I would advise not trying to change too much at once. So, maybe get nearly down to your target weight before trying to give up sweeteners - if you really want to.

Many folk also find a diet fizz helps to feel fuller on an FD.

Fantastic, Mazzle. Have some (the virtual, calorie-free kind) to celebrate!

Batfuttocks, I'm glad there is someone else who knows the proper way to eat a Twix.

Oh boy, if I ate to appetite on NFDs I'd put on weight very quickly indeed. That's my problem - I don't seem to have an off-switch, and I just don't feel full. I've learnt over the last couple of years what a portion should be, and I know to stop eating because I should, but it's usually not because I've had enough.

Wombles, frantic means I can't shovel the stuff in quick enough, and all the psychological strategies I've been working on over the last year and a half are simply smashed to pieces before the compulsion to eat. It's like I'm in a state of panic, and I'm not in control of what I'm doing. Your account of emptying the cupboards is exactly what I do too. I've always been a secret binger - when I was younger I couldn't eat in front of people at all, and although I was over that by about the age of 30, for the last couple of decades I've only ever eaten modestly in company. But between October and end of December I found myself binging at work, if there were pastries or biscuits in meetings, for instance, I simply couldn't stop wolfing them down despite feeling mortified that I had an audience. It's the first time in a long history of secret eating that I've done that, and since someone a few days ago mentioned hormones, it's got me wondering whether it might be something to do with the menopause. I don't mean to make excuses, but it does seem a bit odd that after decades of ingrained inhibitions about eating in public, then a year of really careful eating and losing 6 stone, that I should suddenly find myself overcome by a physical compulsion beyond anything I've experienced before.

But of course what I hope for is what BigChoc says has happened - a permanent and sustainable change where what I want is good, nutrient-dense food and not too much of it. I'm not expecting it to be easy, and I know I'll have to work hard at it and pick myself up when things go wrong, but in my brighter moments that's what I look forward to.

Ooops, didn't see you there Hopeful. Good luck with your fast - I'll be joining you when today (still tomorrow here!) arrives.

Evening - survived my first NFD and like Hopefulgum I think I have probably gone well over my TDEE today. I wasn't actually that hungry after FD - started off well but had some smarties this afternoon (oh, and a choc crispy thing that some office feeders had left in the kitchen) then after work I had some oatcakes and peanut butter as was starving properly then and about to leave for the gym.

Moment of mortification en route to gym - normally train in normal stretchy trousers/vest top ensemble, but have a lightweight jacket tied around my waist to hid arse, tummy etc but realised I had forgotten it and too late to go back so had to do session with PT in massive, busy gym full of proper athlete-type people looking like a sack of potatoes. HIIT sessions went well though, and am lifting slightly bigger weights than last time (lat pull down is my special talent for some reason and am now just over 40kg which really pleases me as pretty useless at most things!)

BigChoc I'm really interested in the health benefits of 5:2 as have a pituitary condition (prolactinoma) that's normally controlled by drugs. Was told it may go into remission naturally post-pregnancy but doubt that will happen. Am wondering though what effects 5:2 might have on the endocrine system? Although wonder as well whether this condition has affected my weight, or vice versa?

good luck to those fasting tomorrow - my litre of soup is packed up and ready to take to work in the morning

This is my exercise 'regime': running up and down giant-size stairs multiple times a day; stretching high to grab implements in giant-size kitchen; climbing on wooden stool to reach the things I can't quite get; climbing in and out of crocodile-enclosure-style shower; walking to yoga & back three times a week, plus the yoga; walking everywhere I need to get to, as fast as I can, holding my stomach in and doing yoga breathing; walking three kilometres back from the lake nearly every day after selling my muffins; climbing trees with the cat; running away from host's teenage daughter's horrible tinny rap 'music'...

I have never actually counted calories. In the beginning, well over a year ago, I followed the Telegraph recipes, which were good but fussy. I now tend to follow TIP's guidelines although I do snack sometimes. The wild blackberries ripening everywhere are irresistable, as is Patagonian icecream. And I love good red wine

Finally being the size I want to be - just a bit more tightening-up via exercise/yoga required - I have to balance what I am eating more carefully...not too much and not too little. I wonder what would happen if I really paid attention to TDEEs & calories...but have no intention of doing so!

I am using 25kilo bags of flour for my muffins and they are so heavy to move...can hardly believe I was carrying all that around on me

Hi WW Sorry to hear of your loss! (((Hugs!)))

That's a cracking workout you're giving yourself. I think it was Cyclist on the maintenance thread that said lugging around a rucksack weighing what you had lost was a salutary lesson!

About chocolate: I've always got a load of chocolate in the house. (I make pain au chocolat with my groups quite often.) At times it has been a bit of an addiction - but now I think I have it under control.

I allow myself one bar of Lindt's chilli choc once a week. I have a piece, or two, with a coffee or hot drink after a meal. This satisfies three requirements:

1. I only eat chocolate as part of a meal - strongly recommended by my dentist!! (I remember, 12 months ago, when I first heard this, saying to myself, "Yeah, right!")
2. It satisfies my need for something sweet after a meal - otherwise I might go for something a lot more calorific, and a square is only 55 cals
3. Chocolate is supposed to be good for you.

I often cut the square into 9 pieces, and suck slowly on each one. Often I'll time a minute between each piece. And occasionally, I'll eat a few chopped, dried, unsulphured apricots, or chopped walnuts with the chocolate. [super-healthy emoticon!]

Bon appétit!

Hello everyone. Thank you so much for your hints, tips and moreover inspiring the beginning of my 5:2 WOE.

I've started fasting this week. Day one went really well. I'm in 750 calories as breastfeeding my six week old. I also have a three year old. I found the fast relatively straightforward and felt fantastic the next day. Tomorrow (well today as I'm typing during 4am feed) is fast number two. Last night was my husband's birthday, so whilst we didn't go mad we had a fairly substantial meal. It was somehow more enjoyable knowing we would be fasting today.

I'm very fortunate to have a specialist HIIT studio right on my street here in London, so am starting back there. I went a lot before between my pregnancies but overcompensated for the exercise by eating too much so no real weight loss. I'm tracking fast days and three NFDs on MFP so hopefully the weight (about three stone) will come off this time. Most of it is not baby weight but weight I've gradually put on since meeting DH ten years ago.

Anyway, thank you all again for the fantastic stories etc. I look forward to hearing more!

Wow - I take myself off to the exercise thread for a while and miss loads!

Congrats on all the successful fast days and TDEE NF days.

Hi to Metella and welcome, very impressed with your ability to do sleep deprived fast days!

For those struggling with binging - I have found adding something to MFP before I eat it really helpful. Sometimes I look at the result and think 'urgh, the biscuits aren't nice enough not to be able to have that nice high cal dinner tonight' and it stops me eating it at all. Other times it makes me realise that OK 2 biscuits is a pretty acceptable number of calories but 6 is huge - oops and helps me limit. Also I find taking the amount of treat type food I want, closing and putting the packet away and then sitting somewhere else to eat it helps too. If I have a big bar of chocolate while I sit on the sofa I'll happily scoff the lot if I break off one row of squares and put the rest back in the fridge I'm much less likely to go back for 2nd, 3rd and 4th row!

That said, Doris the experiences you describe sound pretty unpleasant and fortunately not something I've experienced for a few years now - for me was associated with my depression. Might well be worth considering whether hormones or some other issue might be impacting you.

Right - I have nearly finished my tasty FD pea soup for lunch, better get back to work.

Happy Thursday FD everyone! On my second cup of black tea, having a read of my kindle while the kids chill out. No rushing anywhere this morning, bliss. I'll get moving in the next hour, exercise/spring cleaning are on the agenda before food, keeping busy will distract me from any hunger pangs. Have a visit planned later where chocolate bikkies will be on offer and in abundance - I have allowed enough wriggle room in my plan to have a little something so if I really want it I will but at this point my plan is to stick to ok snacking between meals. My only fear is they might have a twix on offer I personally nibble the chocolate around the edges, eat the caramel and suck the biscuit til it disintegrates in my greedy gullet.... Nom nom nom. Arg! I'll have to stop all talk of twix, that's wayyy out of my calorie range, but tomorrow I'm defo buying one[ grin]