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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Exercise & Fitness: Advice and information for those following 5:2 / IF (Intermittent Fasting)

999 replies

BigChocFrenzyAteYourReindeer · 31/12/2013 01:51

Why Exercise ?

Maintaining a normal bodyweight and taking regular exercise are 2 major areas of life which we can address to improve our health.

Fasted training, i.e. training on FDs, seems to increase the benefits of both training and IF, but it is advisable to first become used to fasting

Exercise alone does not produce significant weight loss for most people. However it can improve body shape and can help overcome weight plateaux.

Regular exercise helps reduce the risk of obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart diesease, high blood pressure, some cancers, osteoporosis, dementia, depression.

  • Try to train regularly, building up to 3-6 days per week.
  • Develop a training routine you enjoy and want to continue long term.
  • Regular exercisers gain the greatest benefits over their lifetime and they can minimise biological aging, i.e. "Bend the Aging Curve" BendAge

WARNING: If you are very obese or have health issues, check with your GP that you are able to start exercising and also if there are types of exercise you should avoid.

Fat and Metabolism

Body fat is highly active tissue which secretes hormones (e.g. leptin, adiponectin) and microphages (which cause inflammation) directly into the bloodstream. These substances can significantly affect metabolism & weight and increase the risk of diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, stroke, some cancers.
E.g ref and ref

Visceral fat is more dangerous than subcutaneous - a study found that liposuction removing up to 20lb of the latter did not improve health indicators. Visceral fat needs to be reduced by exercise and a calorie deficit, preferably both together.

Hormesis

"What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger"
Hormesis Mattson and Hormesis can be applied to exercise, analagous to how 5:2 /IF uses it for nutrition.
Alternating between “extremes” of feast and fast (like 5:2) or intense training and rest, makes the body more resilient.

The intermittent stress of lifting an extreme weight or performing at high speed for a short period pushes the body to overcompensate and prepare for an even greater future challenge HormesisTrain and AntiFragile
The following recovery period avoids damage from over-stressing.

INEFFICIENT: Low-Medium Intensity Steady state Cardio

Steady state cardio is not necessary and should only be a small part of your weekly cardio, unless it is all you can manage to do.

Only high intensity exercise recruits the fast-twitch muscle fibers that have the most glycogen (stored glucose). Steady State Cardio does not empty the glucose stores in those particular muscles. Hence, the circulating glucose has nowhere to be stored — except as bodyfat.

Moreover, the muscle cells will lose their sensitivity to insulin and become inflamed by the high levels of insulin, which the body has produced to deal with the high levels of circulating glucose. The body mortars this inflammation with LDL cholesterol.

Hence, those exercising only at low-medium intensity are at greater risk of cardiovascular problems than high intensity exercisers SteadyState (pp. 31-34).
Obviously, non-exercisers have the highest risk of all.

RECOMMENDED TYPES of Exercise

HIIT cardio and resistance training / weight lifting are recommended to boost the effect of 5:2/IF, to increase weight loss, reduce body fat, retain muscle and maintain TDEE / BMR.

Anyone who is not specialising in a sport at a high level should aim to do a variety of training: HIIT cardio, resistance and flexibility.

HOW to Exercise

The cardio machines and the girlie pink dumbbells that gyms push are inadequate to significantly improve fitness or burn fat.
However, 10 mins walk on a treadmill or outside is beneficial after training, especially after heavy lifting.
Scientists have proved that cardio and resistance training can be done in the same session, without detriment to either, e.g. TrainBoth

Whether you join a gym or train at home or in the park:

  • Train as intensively as your time, health and fitness level allow.
  • Do not remain in your comfort zone, or you will not improve.
  • You are supposed to drip sweat and pant heavily !
However, a brisk 30 mins daily walk plus 5 mins hoop is better than nothing and if done regularly will bring some health benefits.

Flexibility

  • Stretching for 5 mins before and after each training session is recommended
  • Yoga and Pilates classes can be added if additional flexibility training is desired. Some such classes also provide additional strength / toning.

HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training)

HIIT is an exercise strategy which alternates brief intervals of high intensity exercise with less-intense recovery periods. Time intervals may be equal or different and their length and the number of sets depends on fitness level.

Start with one session per week and build up to a maximum of 3 (no more).

HIIT is very time-efficient, producing the greatest fitness benefit in the least time (the advantage of hormesis). However, beginners should build up gradually, starting say with just 1 or 2 intervals.

Scientists have proved that HIIT burns more fat than steady state lower intensity exercise and speeds up the metabolism, which helps burn more calories for up to 48 hrs.

HIIT increases both aerobic and anaerobic endurance

HIIT can be applied to cardio: e.g. cycling, running, skipping, jumping, mountain climbs
or to bodyweight exercises, e.g. squatting, situps, burpees, pressups

Most gyms offer classes, e.g.
spinning, circuit training, CrossFit, Tabata, Fartlek(Fartlek = HIIT with irregular intervals)
which each use a form of interval training.
These classes require less planning and are often more enjoyable (music, socialising, equipment) than training on your own.

A typical HIIT session could consist of:

  • 4 mins warmup
  • 8 sets of intervals
  • 4 mins cooldown
and last 12-60 mins in total.

Recovery time is usually half the high intensity time.
Examples of typical interval sets are:

  • 20 seconds high intensity + 10 secs recovery OR
  • 40 sec high + 20 sec low OR
  • 60 sec high + 30 sec low

Detailed HIIT example plans: (scroll down to Workouts section and ignore whether entitled "cutting" or "bulking") BodyBuild

RESISTANCE Training / LIFTING

This helps retain muscle mass during weight loss and hence to maintain TDEE.

It is easier in a gym, especially re equipment. You can lift in the weights area on your own OR in a pump class.
Whether @ gym or home, before you start lifting, have a few lessons with a trainer to learn the correct form and avoid injury.

It is best not to train the same muscle groups 2 days in succession, so have rest days, or cardio, or train different muscle groups on different days.
Try to build up to weight training for 30-60 mins twice per week.

WARNING
The "Heavy" lifting described here should not exceed bodyweight unless you are really fit and expert.
Women who have given birth and / or are aged 40+ have a higher risk of pelvic floor / prolapse injuries when lifting heavy than young non-mums.

Main Lifting / Resistance Exercises

Reps = the number of repetitions in a set of a particular lifting exercise
Sets are normally separated by brief rests
E.g. you might do 3 sets each of 12 reps all of the same exercise.

If you have access to dumbbells / barbells, then for maximum effect, work the large muscle groups. Alternatively, use bodyweight.
squats
bent-over rows (press button "female")
Behind neckPress (press button "female")
dead lift
The abs and smaller muscle groups will automatically be trained by these exercises, but you can add optionally 20 mins weekly abs exercises:

Basic Abs

  • Situps: build up to 3 sets of 20 reps. Try to put your arms in front of you, instead of behind your head
  • Angled situps: with one ankle resting on the opposite knee. 2 sets of 15 each side
  • Plank: 3 sets, each 45 secs
  • Leg extensions: legs bent 90 degrees, so your lower legs are parallel to the floor. Stretch each leg in turn, parallel to the floor. 3 sets of 10.

Lifting To increase Strength Rather than Muscle Mass
Lift as heavy as you can, low reps, with 1 minute rest between sets
e.g. 5 sets x 5 reps each, i.e. totalling 25 lifts.

Lifting To Build More Muscle
With a lower weight, do 3 sets x 8-20 reps, i.e. totalling 24-60 lifts.

Additionally, or if you don't have heavy barbells, use your bodyweight.
Example to build up to:

  • 3 sets of 30 press ups, proper ones, see detail below +.
  • 40 deep squats, with thighs parallel to floor, i.e. ATG (Arse to Grass) see ++.
  • 3 set of 8 reps inverted pullup /row Inverted OR assisted chin-ups on a gym machine OR full chin-ups if you can manage them (Amazon have pullup bars which fit over doors from about £15)

+Press ups

  • It is best to keep attempting one proper pressup rather than doing several dozen girlie ones with your knees on the floor.
  • Once you can do one pressup, you will soon be able to build up to 5, then 10 etc.
  • Tip: keep the abs rigid, so strong abs are as important as strong shoulders & arms.

++Squats

  • Are the best exercise for the large muscle group in bum and thighs.
  • Basic principle: It is like having a pee on a public loo - get your bum down low and pointing to the rear, but not actually touching the seat.
-Lean back on your heels, so that weight is on them, not on your toes. -For bodyweight squats, bring your arms forward -Keep your back straight, but angled slightly forward, not vertical.
  • Go down as far as you can without knee pain.

CAUTION With Leangains-Type Protocols

5:2 is an easier WOL than other forms of IF, with most days being NFDs during which the body can recuperate.

Some women have had injuries or health problems with very tough LeanGains-type protocols, which combine ADF or daily 16:8 with fasted lifting of multiples of body weight.

Some women have achieved excellent results on LeanGains-type; others had problems after a few months, or even from the start. Particularly at risk are women with very low (11-18%) body fat, possibly already with irregular menstruation, or with EDs.

Post-menopausal women seem to do well, as do men, presumably due to differences in hormones, body fat %, metabolism.

RECOMMENDATION: Don't lift more than your bodyweight and mostly lift well below it.

Running versus Walking

Walking is beneficial psychologically, is easy on the knee joints and has some physical benefits.

However, at speeds of 5mph or faster, running will burn more calories per mile than walking Ref . Typical values:

  • For running (5 mph and higher): Total calories burned per mile = .75 x body weight (in pounds); net calories (see ++) burned per mile = .63 x weight.
  • For walking (3 to 4 mph): Total calories burned per mile = .53 x body weight; net calories burned per mile = .30 x weight.

++ Note: net calories = total calories - cals the body would have burned at rest (calculated from BMR)

AVOID OSTEOPOROSIS

We start losing bone density from about age 35. Women can lose a great deal before, during and after menopause.

Other risk factors: Smoking, heavy drinking, inactive lifestyle, very slim build, family history of osteoporosis, longterm steroid use.

To retain bone strength and avoid a painfully disabled old age, start now:
Ideally weight bearing exercises that load the bone along its length

Impact exercise E.g. walking, running, jumping, skipping rope, step class, hitting a heavy punch bag.

Lifting: squats, press-ups, bench press, overhead press etc.

Squats are much better than lunges: The weight in a squat is transmitted down along the spine, through the hip, and down along the bones of the leg, whereas in a lunge, it is transmitted across the shinbone and puts pressure on the knee joint.

Cycling normally does NOT increase bone density as it does not really load bones along their length. A study found that cyclists who did no other exercise had low bone density because of the combo of this with their training Osteo

KETTLEBELLS

Useful exercise descriptions and videos: Kettle
Recommended for beginners (and shown in the link):
. Two-handed swing
. Sumo Deadlift
. Turkish Getup
. Swing
. Clean and Jerk
. Press

How to Choose a Gym (if you want to)

  • gym offpeak can be as cheap as £30 p.m. as you don't need expensive pools, sauna, juice bars, massage etc.
  • within journey time 20 mins
  • plenty of classes at times to suit you
  • creche if needed
  • don't bother with expense of a personal trainer.

Start with these classes if available:

  • weekly spin, because you can set your own resistance and speed 45-60 mins
  • any additional interval training class, see earlier for list.
  • weekly pump 60 mins
  • weekly abs class 15-30 mins

======================================

CALCULATORS:
Estimate your fitness age: FitAge
Estimate Vo2Max iTunes App: Vo2APP
Body Fat Calculator:BF
Healthy Body Fat Percentages at Different Ages:
HealthyBF
TDEE with detailed activity times: TDEE

More links: 52FastDietForum-Fasting & Exercise 52exercise GettingStronger.Org-Hormesis Hormesis GettingStronger.Org-Fitness Fitness LeanGains Protocols : Leangains MarksDailyApple-Home Workouts Without Equipment WorkAtHome

OP posts:
MetellaEstMater · 06/03/2014 23:39

I've recently started 5:2 and posted on the main thread, but have been lurking on here as am a wannabe gym bunny and currently doing HIIT for half an hour (circuits and cardio) six times a week. I am wondering whether any anybody has tips on rest days? I have a three year old and an eight week old who I'm breastfeeding so quite tired but the gym gives me half an hour to myself once DH is home and I'm using PactApp for extra motivation.

Sorry to read your story MrsF.

Breadandwine · 07/03/2014 00:42

Bugger! I've done my knee in! Suspect I've been too strenuous with my squats or kettlebell swings. Whatever, I've given up all knee-bending - so, no squats, and all my kb exercises are done with straight legs.

Can't even break into a bit of a trot as I'm used to doing, since that is also a bit painful. But a week or so complete rest should see me right again.

However, on the other hand, I have two PBs to report - yesterday with HIIT and today with my cardio!

MrsF I'd like to apologise on behalf of my gender! Blush 'What an arse' doesn't cover it! Angry

If you see no future as an employee, what about using your considerable transferable skills to become self-employed? Something in interior design, perhaps? Wink

I applaud your desire to restore the balance and can only wish you all the best with that! Flowers

Breadandwine · 07/03/2014 00:54

I posted on the main thread about my lack of desire for sweet stuff and snacking over the last three months - which exactly mirrors the time I've been weight training. Cause and effect? Or coincidence.

Whatever, I've stopped my evening snacking, haven't had chocolate for about 3 days (unheard of even a week ago), I haven't made a cake in weeks, when I would make one or two a week.

There's been an opened packet of ginger biscuits in the cupboard since before Christmas - lord knows what state they're in, and an unopened packet of Oaties is coming to the end of its BBE date.

I bought some chocolate liqueurs (vegan) from Lidl about ten days ago, and I've still got some left.

Confused
MetellaEstMater · 07/03/2014 07:20

I must admit I struggle with the sweet cravings these days. Used to be savouries but that changed when I had children. I find a square of Waitrose dark cooking chocolate or one of DD1's petit filous chocolate pots eaten very slowly works as dessert though.

Double class day today. HIIT cardio then a toning circuit.

ErrolTheDragon · 07/03/2014 08:18

MrsF - sounds like you've got a sensible plan. With DC to consider I think your measured approach is wise - and also with your FIL so ill now isn't the time to upset the apple cart. You're a better person than that. And also its probably better to get yourself to a stronger position before instigating too much change.

Now.. back to business! (not that I am today, being sensible as I've still got a bit of a twinge) - I noticed yesterday my bum looked less southerly, so something in the JM must have done it - IIRC you said you were skipping Ri30 L1 because it's too easy but I think the second strength set may have been doing something good (includes squats and isometric butt squeezes), I was doing that with my 10lb dumbells.

Now please tell me what you've been doing with your arms! I might be able to do a bit of that today.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/03/2014 13:40

Pre_Holiday BootCamp for MrsF

Arse (Not your DH, this time)

  1. ATG squats are good for firming your bum. Don't use dumbbells, just concentrate on good form.
    (Arse To Grass / Arse Training is Good)
    Smile
    Go down slowly, pause when your bum is nearly at the floor, slowly up. So, not JM video, but do have music.
    Build up to 3 sets of 10 every few days

  2. 10 mins fast skipping after your squats

Upper Body

  1. Full pressups. Do 2 sets of 10 wide, 1 set of 8 narrow.
  2. Triceps dips. 2 sets of 30 on a low step
  3. 3 sets of 15 bentover rows with heaviest dumbbells
TalkinPeace · 07/03/2014 13:41

Metella
welcome to the gang
getting fit once light is definitely the answer to staying lean

B&W
Yoga time !

errol
I do a lot of flow yoga - VERY toning

MrsFlorrick · 07/03/2014 16:15

Bigchoc. Arse to the grass GrinGrin

I shall be doing that.

TIP. Flowing yoga. Interesting. I may look into that.

Errol. One of the options I'm considering is to set up my own interior design business.
I have had part of the house photographed last month and an interview with a journalist as its about to go into an interior design magazine.
The journalist has emailed me this afternoon as she wants to come back and shoot the whole house for it to go into a 4 page feature in an interiors magazine from the same group.

One of her questions was what my interior design company was called Grin
Perhaps that is my cue to pull my finger out of my backside and incorporate and set up a website.

We bought this house 2.5 years ago and it needed a LOT of work. I started when DS was 4 weeks old (utterly mental!). And I essentially finished it all over a year ago.

Perhaps that's why I'm such a moody dissatisfied cow, because I'm bored.
I guess we either move house and I do another wreck (it all makes money in the end) or I capitalise on this house and start my own business.

I phone my best friend she obv knows what I did here and in our previous house. She said go for it.

I'd love to have some further opinions though before I throw myself into something....

ErrolTheDragon · 07/03/2014 17:30

I guess we either move house and I do another wreck (it all makes money in the end)

who for though? You want some money of your own you can actually spend at your own discretion don't you, not more tied up in bricks, mortar and F&B paint.

I fall over backwards when I try ATG, can't keep my CofG over my feet... but whatever squats you do, a good squeeeeze at the top of the move feels like it does something for the glutes.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/03/2014 18:05

MrsF You clearly have talent as an interior designer, plus business knowhow and sufficient web skills.
Currently, your DA (Dear Arsehole) profits from the increased value you have brought to the house, while you are now an unpaid skivvy

So, your own business at home sounds a great idea, as the profits would go to YOU, as an independent income.

While you are building up a clientele, maybe friends could take the DCS for a couple of hours, if you need to visit homes.
Once you get established, you can afford a few hours CM.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/03/2014 19:01

Muscular Fitness
Average life expectancy (for given gender, age etc) is linearly related to % muscle and strength

FULL pressups within 1 minute
This (US Cooper Institute) gives several strength grades from "poor" up to "top" fitness, e.g. here are 2 of the grades, "fair" ... "top":

  • Age 20 – 29, Women 15…42 / Men 29 … 62
  • Age 30 – 39, Women 11…39 / Men 24… 52
  • Age 40 – 49, Women 9…20 / Men 18…40
  • Age 50 – 59, Women ? / Men 13…39
  • Age 60+ Women ? / Men 10…28

No figures for age 57, but I can do 50+ in 1 minute. If I train specifically for it, I might reach 60.

OK, how do you rate on the BigGIrl strength scale ?
Hmm ^^

BetsyBell · 07/03/2014 22:18

Hmmm, let me get back to you on that one bigchoc, not looking good at the moment... I just need a few weeks Grin

MrsFlorrick · 07/03/2014 22:28

Bigchoc. Grin I've had Wine so can't test your press up theory. However I have weak girly arms compared to you and US navy gents so probably poor. Wink

Tried your ass is grass squats (before Wine obv). Ouch. That will sort the saggy arse quick smart. Grin

You're magic Bigchoc!! You're my hero (Wine talking Wink)

Right back to Wine

ErrolTheDragon · 07/03/2014 22:34

OK, how do you rate on the BigGIrl strength scale ?

not even on it. Yet.

Breadandwine · 08/03/2014 00:05

Well, I managed 31 on the BigGIrl strength scale! Grin

Had to stop for a bit of a rest at 28, then managed another 3 before the timer went off.

I'd better come clean here about my pull-ups. My supposed 15 cm of lift must have been measured when I was swinging back and forth, because I don't seem to have made any progress since then. Except that I now do 15 at a time instead of 10.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/03/2014 14:18

You are top-fit, B&W and your son has noticed your new muscles.
Pullups take a really long time to build up to.

Still, at least you've regained that inch in height and I noticed that even assisted pullups have improved my shoulder shape.
Smile

TalkinPeace · 08/03/2014 18:12

I'm going to start on pull ups next week ...... we've got asymmetric monkey bars at the gym and some of the girls can do them ... I'm determined to get there by the summer

MrsF pop that FB picture of your living room on your profile ... its GORGEOUS

MrsFlorrick · 09/03/2014 08:20

TIP. GrinGrin Thanks Thanks.

Monkey bars! Wow. I wouldn't be brave enough. Smile

Ugh. Awful night. DC both up every five sodding minutes. Anything from "I'm scared of the Gruffalo and scrambled snake" (DS) to "can we go to the beach now" (DD). Argh.

Never mind being 40, my brain feels 80 today Hmm

On the plus side there was so much rummaging around and wailing that they kept DH up as well. And he is complaining like a baby this morning. Grin I shouldn't laugh but I am. And he's promised to take DC to London Zoo and he can't get out of it now. Grin

Did my JM workout yesterday and am fully intending to do another session today.

Also did some Bigchoc squats after JM session. Ouch. The JM Ripped in 30 Week 3 is very heavy of squats anyway and adding the Bigchoc ones in may have broken my bum. Wink

Tiredemma · 09/03/2014 09:48

I went on a 5k run yesterday around by where I live- over the fields at the back is a steep hill- I intermittently 'sprinted' up (say for 20 secs each time), jogged back down and then repeated this 3x- would thi be classed as HIIT? I have to say that I thought my heart and lungs were about to EXPLODE through my chest!

BigChocFrenzy · 09/03/2014 13:42

TiredEmma Yes, you've added one of Mosely's HIIT Fast Fitness Blasts to your routine.
These are much shorter and hence more intensely concentrated than classic one-hour HIIT gym sessions.
As you build up the HIIT, it should improve your aerobic fitness and also some important health markers.
Smile
Try to build up to at least 5 intervals per session and do this 3 times per week.

For muscle power, if you don't want to do do long sessions, then Mosely's Fast Strength mini-workouts can bring some of the benefits.
You would do say pressups or STG squats, in high intensity intervals. Also build up to a few per week.
These quick blasts are better in addition to a longer routine than just on their own.

BigChocFrenzy · 09/03/2014 13:45

**ATG squats

Tiredemma · 09/03/2014 15:44

OOoh thats great.

Im going to keep at that 5k route then for the next few weeks and do 3/4 hill sprints each time.

MrsFlorrick · 09/03/2014 22:06

Evening all. Grin
Popping in to say another day another session of JM and some Bigchoc squats (ouch). I've serious broken my bum. Wink

EarSlaps · 09/03/2014 22:35

Yes, I did some JM too MrsF (6w6p) plus lots of gardening today. Are we going to see you back on the JM thread again soon? It's busier again after a break for half term.

Operation kitchen is nearly over- painting is tomorrow and Tuesday, then heating on Wednesday and glass splash back should come soon. Need to measure up for blinds too.

I cannot do ATG squats! I just don't seem to bend that way and I topple over. I've tried doing some stretches but I guess it takes time. I keep meaning to do yoga but I prefer HIIT type exercise, I just get all fidgety in yoga and can't wind down enough iyswim.

MrsFlorrick · 09/03/2014 22:41

Earslaps. Grin Yes you'll see me back on the JM thread.

And no can't fully do the Bigchoc killer squats. Not without falling over. I go as low as I can with the aim of getting lower every day. It will take some time. Plus at 40 my knees are not what they once were.... Hmm

I think the key is to aim lower with each squat and each day.
I will let you know when my arse hits the floor and I can get back up and keep squatting.