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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Exercise & Fitness: Advice and information for those following 5:2 / IF (Intermittent Fasting)

999 replies

BigChocFrenzyAteYourReindeer · 31/12/2013 01:51

Why Exercise ?

Maintaining a normal bodyweight and taking regular exercise are 2 major areas of life which we can address to improve our health.

Fasted training, i.e. training on FDs, seems to increase the benefits of both training and IF, but it is advisable to first become used to fasting

Exercise alone does not produce significant weight loss for most people. However it can improve body shape and can help overcome weight plateaux.

Regular exercise helps reduce the risk of obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart diesease, high blood pressure, some cancers, osteoporosis, dementia, depression.

  • Try to train regularly, building up to 3-6 days per week.
  • Develop a training routine you enjoy and want to continue long term.
  • Regular exercisers gain the greatest benefits over their lifetime and they can minimise biological aging, i.e. "Bend the Aging Curve" BendAge

WARNING: If you are very obese or have health issues, check with your GP that you are able to start exercising and also if there are types of exercise you should avoid.

Fat and Metabolism

Body fat is highly active tissue which secretes hormones (e.g. leptin, adiponectin) and microphages (which cause inflammation) directly into the bloodstream. These substances can significantly affect metabolism & weight and increase the risk of diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, stroke, some cancers.
E.g ref and ref

Visceral fat is more dangerous than subcutaneous - a study found that liposuction removing up to 20lb of the latter did not improve health indicators. Visceral fat needs to be reduced by exercise and a calorie deficit, preferably both together.

Hormesis

"What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger"
Hormesis Mattson and Hormesis can be applied to exercise, analagous to how 5:2 /IF uses it for nutrition.
Alternating between “extremes” of feast and fast (like 5:2) or intense training and rest, makes the body more resilient.

The intermittent stress of lifting an extreme weight or performing at high speed for a short period pushes the body to overcompensate and prepare for an even greater future challenge HormesisTrain and AntiFragile
The following recovery period avoids damage from over-stressing.

INEFFICIENT: Low-Medium Intensity Steady state Cardio

Steady state cardio is not necessary and should only be a small part of your weekly cardio, unless it is all you can manage to do.

Only high intensity exercise recruits the fast-twitch muscle fibers that have the most glycogen (stored glucose). Steady State Cardio does not empty the glucose stores in those particular muscles. Hence, the circulating glucose has nowhere to be stored — except as bodyfat.

Moreover, the muscle cells will lose their sensitivity to insulin and become inflamed by the high levels of insulin, which the body has produced to deal with the high levels of circulating glucose. The body mortars this inflammation with LDL cholesterol.

Hence, those exercising only at low-medium intensity are at greater risk of cardiovascular problems than high intensity exercisers SteadyState (pp. 31-34).
Obviously, non-exercisers have the highest risk of all.

RECOMMENDED TYPES of Exercise

HIIT cardio and resistance training / weight lifting are recommended to boost the effect of 5:2/IF, to increase weight loss, reduce body fat, retain muscle and maintain TDEE / BMR.

Anyone who is not specialising in a sport at a high level should aim to do a variety of training: HIIT cardio, resistance and flexibility.

HOW to Exercise

The cardio machines and the girlie pink dumbbells that gyms push are inadequate to significantly improve fitness or burn fat.
However, 10 mins walk on a treadmill or outside is beneficial after training, especially after heavy lifting.
Scientists have proved that cardio and resistance training can be done in the same session, without detriment to either, e.g. TrainBoth

Whether you join a gym or train at home or in the park:

  • Train as intensively as your time, health and fitness level allow.
  • Do not remain in your comfort zone, or you will not improve.
  • You are supposed to drip sweat and pant heavily !
However, a brisk 30 mins daily walk plus 5 mins hoop is better than nothing and if done regularly will bring some health benefits.

Flexibility

  • Stretching for 5 mins before and after each training session is recommended
  • Yoga and Pilates classes can be added if additional flexibility training is desired. Some such classes also provide additional strength / toning.

HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training)

HIIT is an exercise strategy which alternates brief intervals of high intensity exercise with less-intense recovery periods. Time intervals may be equal or different and their length and the number of sets depends on fitness level.

Start with one session per week and build up to a maximum of 3 (no more).

HIIT is very time-efficient, producing the greatest fitness benefit in the least time (the advantage of hormesis). However, beginners should build up gradually, starting say with just 1 or 2 intervals.

Scientists have proved that HIIT burns more fat than steady state lower intensity exercise and speeds up the metabolism, which helps burn more calories for up to 48 hrs.

HIIT increases both aerobic and anaerobic endurance

HIIT can be applied to cardio: e.g. cycling, running, skipping, jumping, mountain climbs
or to bodyweight exercises, e.g. squatting, situps, burpees, pressups

Most gyms offer classes, e.g.
spinning, circuit training, CrossFit, Tabata, Fartlek(Fartlek = HIIT with irregular intervals)
which each use a form of interval training.
These classes require less planning and are often more enjoyable (music, socialising, equipment) than training on your own.

A typical HIIT session could consist of:

  • 4 mins warmup
  • 8 sets of intervals
  • 4 mins cooldown
and last 12-60 mins in total.

Recovery time is usually half the high intensity time.
Examples of typical interval sets are:

  • 20 seconds high intensity + 10 secs recovery OR
  • 40 sec high + 20 sec low OR
  • 60 sec high + 30 sec low

Detailed HIIT example plans: (scroll down to Workouts section and ignore whether entitled "cutting" or "bulking") BodyBuild

RESISTANCE Training / LIFTING

This helps retain muscle mass during weight loss and hence to maintain TDEE.

It is easier in a gym, especially re equipment. You can lift in the weights area on your own OR in a pump class.
Whether @ gym or home, before you start lifting, have a few lessons with a trainer to learn the correct form and avoid injury.

It is best not to train the same muscle groups 2 days in succession, so have rest days, or cardio, or train different muscle groups on different days.
Try to build up to weight training for 30-60 mins twice per week.

WARNING
The "Heavy" lifting described here should not exceed bodyweight unless you are really fit and expert.
Women who have given birth and / or are aged 40+ have a higher risk of pelvic floor / prolapse injuries when lifting heavy than young non-mums.

Main Lifting / Resistance Exercises

Reps = the number of repetitions in a set of a particular lifting exercise
Sets are normally separated by brief rests
E.g. you might do 3 sets each of 12 reps all of the same exercise.

If you have access to dumbbells / barbells, then for maximum effect, work the large muscle groups. Alternatively, use bodyweight.
squats
bent-over rows (press button "female")
Behind neckPress (press button "female")
dead lift
The abs and smaller muscle groups will automatically be trained by these exercises, but you can add optionally 20 mins weekly abs exercises:

Basic Abs

  • Situps: build up to 3 sets of 20 reps. Try to put your arms in front of you, instead of behind your head
  • Angled situps: with one ankle resting on the opposite knee. 2 sets of 15 each side
  • Plank: 3 sets, each 45 secs
  • Leg extensions: legs bent 90 degrees, so your lower legs are parallel to the floor. Stretch each leg in turn, parallel to the floor. 3 sets of 10.

Lifting To increase Strength Rather than Muscle Mass
Lift as heavy as you can, low reps, with 1 minute rest between sets
e.g. 5 sets x 5 reps each, i.e. totalling 25 lifts.

Lifting To Build More Muscle
With a lower weight, do 3 sets x 8-20 reps, i.e. totalling 24-60 lifts.

Additionally, or if you don't have heavy barbells, use your bodyweight.
Example to build up to:

  • 3 sets of 30 press ups, proper ones, see detail below +.
  • 40 deep squats, with thighs parallel to floor, i.e. ATG (Arse to Grass) see ++.
  • 3 set of 8 reps inverted pullup /row Inverted OR assisted chin-ups on a gym machine OR full chin-ups if you can manage them (Amazon have pullup bars which fit over doors from about £15)

+Press ups

  • It is best to keep attempting one proper pressup rather than doing several dozen girlie ones with your knees on the floor.
  • Once you can do one pressup, you will soon be able to build up to 5, then 10 etc.
  • Tip: keep the abs rigid, so strong abs are as important as strong shoulders & arms.

++Squats

  • Are the best exercise for the large muscle group in bum and thighs.
  • Basic principle: It is like having a pee on a public loo - get your bum down low and pointing to the rear, but not actually touching the seat.
-Lean back on your heels, so that weight is on them, not on your toes. -For bodyweight squats, bring your arms forward -Keep your back straight, but angled slightly forward, not vertical.
  • Go down as far as you can without knee pain.

CAUTION With Leangains-Type Protocols

5:2 is an easier WOL than other forms of IF, with most days being NFDs during which the body can recuperate.

Some women have had injuries or health problems with very tough LeanGains-type protocols, which combine ADF or daily 16:8 with fasted lifting of multiples of body weight.

Some women have achieved excellent results on LeanGains-type; others had problems after a few months, or even from the start. Particularly at risk are women with very low (11-18%) body fat, possibly already with irregular menstruation, or with EDs.

Post-menopausal women seem to do well, as do men, presumably due to differences in hormones, body fat %, metabolism.

RECOMMENDATION: Don't lift more than your bodyweight and mostly lift well below it.

Running versus Walking

Walking is beneficial psychologically, is easy on the knee joints and has some physical benefits.

However, at speeds of 5mph or faster, running will burn more calories per mile than walking Ref . Typical values:

  • For running (5 mph and higher): Total calories burned per mile = .75 x body weight (in pounds); net calories (see ++) burned per mile = .63 x weight.
  • For walking (3 to 4 mph): Total calories burned per mile = .53 x body weight; net calories burned per mile = .30 x weight.

++ Note: net calories = total calories - cals the body would have burned at rest (calculated from BMR)

AVOID OSTEOPOROSIS

We start losing bone density from about age 35. Women can lose a great deal before, during and after menopause.

Other risk factors: Smoking, heavy drinking, inactive lifestyle, very slim build, family history of osteoporosis, longterm steroid use.

To retain bone strength and avoid a painfully disabled old age, start now:
Ideally weight bearing exercises that load the bone along its length

Impact exercise E.g. walking, running, jumping, skipping rope, step class, hitting a heavy punch bag.

Lifting: squats, press-ups, bench press, overhead press etc.

Squats are much better than lunges: The weight in a squat is transmitted down along the spine, through the hip, and down along the bones of the leg, whereas in a lunge, it is transmitted across the shinbone and puts pressure on the knee joint.

Cycling normally does NOT increase bone density as it does not really load bones along their length. A study found that cyclists who did no other exercise had low bone density because of the combo of this with their training Osteo

KETTLEBELLS

Useful exercise descriptions and videos: Kettle
Recommended for beginners (and shown in the link):
. Two-handed swing
. Sumo Deadlift
. Turkish Getup
. Swing
. Clean and Jerk
. Press

How to Choose a Gym (if you want to)

  • gym offpeak can be as cheap as £30 p.m. as you don't need expensive pools, sauna, juice bars, massage etc.
  • within journey time 20 mins
  • plenty of classes at times to suit you
  • creche if needed
  • don't bother with expense of a personal trainer.

Start with these classes if available:

  • weekly spin, because you can set your own resistance and speed 45-60 mins
  • any additional interval training class, see earlier for list.
  • weekly pump 60 mins
  • weekly abs class 15-30 mins

======================================

CALCULATORS:
Estimate your fitness age: FitAge
Estimate Vo2Max iTunes App: Vo2APP
Body Fat Calculator:BF
Healthy Body Fat Percentages at Different Ages:
HealthyBF
TDEE with detailed activity times: TDEE

More links: 52FastDietForum-Fasting & Exercise 52exercise GettingStronger.Org-Hormesis Hormesis GettingStronger.Org-Fitness Fitness LeanGains Protocols : Leangains MarksDailyApple-Home Workouts Without Equipment WorkAtHome

OP posts:
Breadandwine · 01/03/2014 23:24

Excellent, BB! Star

Just be careful you don't overfeed that hangover in the morning! Grin

Meant to say, I spent almost 2 hours continuously playing table tennis yesterday - I was pretty knackered by the end of it, I can tell you.

Everybody takes turns, but the winners stay on! Wink

BetsyBell · 02/03/2014 08:56

Photos won't upload for me still Confused No apparent reason for it but I'll keep trying! Hopefully one of my my buddies has got a cool one of me smashing through a board with my palm I can put up. Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 02/03/2014 11:43

You smash boards, cor !
Smile ^^
No TaeKwondo in my locale, sadly, but I do get to hammer a big punch bag - plus the occasional hunk who doesn't block in time when we spar.

TalkinPeace · 02/03/2014 15:11

HENCH betsy !!!

BetsyBell · 02/03/2014 18:57

No board break = no belt. It's the absolute best bit of grading!

Fierce Grin

ErrolTheDragon · 02/03/2014 19:02

BB - Awe!

Boleh · 03/03/2014 01:31

Congratulations Betsy board breaking is awesome! We don't have anything that hardcore in my karate belts!!

Now I know that steady state cardio is not the most effective but I'd really like someone to tell me that yesterday's epic hike was not a total waste of time! It was only supposed to be 14k and the final peak is under 500m so we couldn't understand why the national park people said it would take 7 hours, 8 hours later I limped back to the car! No part of the walk is flat, or even, or on good path, the last 200m you haul yourself up with ropes fixed to the rock! I got severe summit fever and determinedly got to the peak but then we had to get back... At one point I was crying with exhaustion and had to be given an emergency toffee sweet from the 1st aid kit! I'm sure that hiking is harder when you are in a calorie defecit!

I'm feeling a bit better at discovering our route was actually closer to 20km with 800m of ascent and descent but even so!

No more hiking for a while anyway as the sole pretty much fell off my walking boot and I spent the last 4k or so with it tied on by my bootlace Hmm

Just please someone tell me that this will have burned some fat at least!! Smile

BetsyBell · 03/03/2014 09:52

Wow Boleh hardcore hiking! Hope your feet are ok today...

MN tell me there's a tech problem with photos at the moment so I'll let y'all know when I've posted up my pics!

ErrolTheDragon · 03/03/2014 10:03

Boleh - I don't think hard hiking with no flat is exactly 'steady state cardio'! Whereabouts were you walking?

Boleh · 03/03/2014 10:26

Besty feet are remarkably fine - won't talk about the uncomfortable chaffage though...!
I'm still in awe of your ninja skills BTW!

Errol thanks, that's what I wanted to hear Smile I live in Malaysia so we were hiking at a local forest park. It's taken a year to get acclimatised enough to even attempt this! I thought I was ready for it but possibly not!!

I was just about 1/2lb lighter this morning than after my last FD so hoping that's weightloss and not just dehydration. We got through nearly 4l of water each (which my DP carried 90% of the way bless him!).

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2014 12:10

Boleh Your hike was definitely not steady state, but intense exercise over a prolonged period, which made your bod work very hard. On an FD, you should have burned even more fat than otherwise.

Now have a rest day, but try to stay about TDEE, so you don't eat back all the cals.

btw: your bod may store a bit of extra water to help repair the muscles, so don't be disappointed if you don't lose as much as you expect next weigh-in. You must have lost some fat.

ErrolTheDragon · 03/03/2014 12:30

Whoa - you don't mean you did that on an FD? Shock And in a tropical climate...

Boleh · 03/03/2014 13:50

BigChoc and Errol the hike was done on a NFD - I think I confessed to the pizza on the other thread Blush I came in about my current weight TDEE, I normally aim for goal weight TDEE. I did the actual hike on not much more than 500 cals but my DP did had to feed me the emergency toffee from the 1st aid kit at one stage to stop the hysterical exhausted breakdown when I realised we would be late back (was worried the car would get locked in the car park!). He suggested we stop for pizza on the way back and I figured if there was going to be any day it wasn't off limits this was it!

Today has been a FD and I think I'm through on around 420 cals. Need to find a way to eat less carbs and more protein for muscle repair rather than just energy - tricky when I don't eat meat, maybe tuna on toast for lunch tomorrow!

MrsFlorrick · 03/03/2014 13:50

(Slinks back in and hides from Bigchoc).

I'm back. It's been a while ahem.

My excuse is that I've been ill. Has scarlet fever. The DC have been ill. Ugh. The whole of Jan and Feb have been taken up with illnesses.

Back on my feet and two days in after restarting my JM Ripped in 30. I've started on Week2 as the first one is too easy.

For anyone who hasn't heard (and this is unlikely as I've shouted it from roof tops), I'm now at goal weight. GrinGrin

But still need toning up. A lot. Porridge arse and tummy. And in 68 days I need to wear a bikini. Yikes

So plan is to get ripped!!

So Bigchoc come and kick my saggy behind and help firm it up!! Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2014 15:00

MrsF Jab a finger in your saggy, porridgy bits (don't ask D H to do this).

Do you think maybe you need to squeeze out another 1-2 % fat ? This would be via HIIT and weekly 3,000 calorie deficit on 5:2.

Or build up the muscle in those areas, via ATG, planks, leg raises etc - Warning: don't panic but this will add weight if you don't also lose bf (but will be healthier and imo would look better)

Probably best plan is to do all of above, since the final cut is always the most difficult. So, 5:2 deficit and HIIT and strength training.

Ideally, gym as well as JM, for maximum final blast.

Btw: I still think one-piece suits are for the serious swimmer, not just those covering up the wobbly bits.

MrsFlorrick · 03/03/2014 15:16

Big choc. Yes to shedding some fat. It's what's needed.

I swim at the gym obv not the last 6 weeks but other than I do regularly. And wear serious boring one piece suits for that. Wink
I swim circa 2km in an hours. Various strokes as I like to mix it up.

I will be back swimming this week hopefully.

I also have a variety of rash vests and rash suits (as the Aussies call them) to wear when snorkelling in very sunny climes. But not a good look as such.

Losing a bit more fat will hopefully help. Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2014 17:29

Swimming won't burn fat very fast, too steady state.
You need HIIT, e.g. spin, skipping, sprints, martial arts etc
Even a trampoline, great fun with the DCs ?

TalkinPeace · 03/03/2014 17:38

Swimming does not burn fat UNLESS you do a lot of it while fasting .....
I do 3/4 or a mile every morning when I've not eaten for over 12 hours
that persistent calorie deficit has to be coming from somewhere as I do not do any high intensity stuff

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2014 18:21

Fasted exercise is obviously more effective than "fed" training of the same type.

Fasted HIIT is the most effective training I know for the rapid fat-burning that Mrsf wants, to ditch those last few, very stubborn pounds in the next several weeks.

Fasted swimming is effective for you when maintaining, Tip.
I suspect you swim very powerfully, even if not HIIT.
Also, you are also very disciplined re calorie intake.

MrsFlorrick · 03/03/2014 19:10

Ah yes. Sorry I didn't explain about swimming.

I do HIIT and strength through my JM workouts. That's in the hope of getting toned.

Swimming is because I dive and snorkel and I need to be able to swim against powerful oceanic currents. I tend to snorkel off shore so it can get very rough even somewhere like Maldives.

I also skin dive. Ie dive down holding breath as long as I can (to look at coral/fish/etc) and back up.

You need very serious endurance for this. I won't get that from HIIT but from doing laps in the pool as fast as I can.

So I will swim an hour or 1.5 hours and try to beat my best ie highest amount of laps.

An hour generally is 2km. 1.5hrs varies as I tend to slow after an hour at full pelt as I get tired.

Bigchoc and TIP. I'm not attempting to tone or lose weight/body fat with swimming. I do it so that I can bob around in the ocean for several hours a day. Grin

MrsFlorrick · 03/03/2014 19:11

When I skin dive during snorkelling I can go down to 10m depth. Again its hard work and your fight currents so endurance is required.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2014 19:34

MrsF Smile ^^

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2014 19:38

How long is JM ? How much is HIIT and how much is strength / static loading like plank ?

To blast off the last few stubborn pounds, I recommend 45-60 mins HIIT sessions 2-3 x per week. Do you get sufficient from JM, or do you need to add some gym classes or skipping ?

EarSlaps · 03/03/2014 23:14

I've been away from the threads for a while. Mostly as I wasn't managing to do any fasting, and very little exercise for the last few weeks whilst operation kitchen has been on. We were without a kitchen for nearly three weeks, we've had a useable kitchen for a couple of weeks but all the decorative bits are still being done- flooring to be finished tomorrow, plinths in later this week, painting and a radiator going in next week.

So, I have had nearly three weeks of warming stuff up from the freezer or having a takeaway for dinner, plus assorted rubbish through the day, then two weeks of going a bit crazy with the baking. Plus I've not managed to do as much exercise and I haven't done a FD for over a month. Yet I have maintained happily at mostly around 9st2, and not gone over 9st4 at any point.

Not sure when I'll do my next fast, part of me feels if I can maintain like this I don't need to. Another part thinks I might need to in order to stop the hunger monster getting out of control Grin. I'm just keeping a careful eye on my weight and as it heads up I just cut back a bit and it heads back down again. I'm keeping up the exercise, I did a L2 of Killer Buns and Thighs, so I might be hobbling tomorrow!

Well done on your belt Betsy and on reaching target MrsF. Sounds like you're still going great guns Errol and BigChoc is still whipping those hunks whilst Tip fights a war against snacking and B&W is swinging his bells Grin. I'll try to catch up with everyone else soon and have a read back on the thread.

MrsFlorrick · 03/03/2014 23:31

Hey Earslaps. Grin Naice to see you.

Bigchoc. JM is "only" 30 mins long. Some of hers like Shred is 25 mins.

The strength is built into the HIIT so you are HIIT the whole way so your heart rate is fully up even whilst doing the abs and strength moves.

But JM isn't to be done 3 Times per week.
When I'm JM'ing. I do it 5 or 6 days per week. So pretty much every day. I aim for everyday but inevitably fail at one day (whiny DC, whiny DH, that sort of thing).

So JM is a bit different from Bigchoc stylee HIIT in that its shorter but you do it more often.

Bigchoc, its the only way I can manage it. 45 - 60 mins means DC will have burnt the house down or I would have to do it at night. Some evenings my arms and legs don't function and my brain is foggy. That's what having small DC does to you sadly.

The shorter intense Frequent JM version means I can do it after dropping DD at school (with DS occupied with something) or just after picking DD up from school and I let her and DS have my iPad for the 30mins I work out and my quick 10 mon shower they "help" me organise things in the bathroom (ie please hand mummy towel, would you hand mummy shampoo etc etc). And that way I get a workout without my world crashing down.

I can swim when DS is at pre school. I can't swim in the evening. It gives me terrible insomnia. Awful. It wakes my brain up.

Ideally I would swim first in the morning. But how the feck would I manage that!??? It's not like DH would suddenly offer to actually get his own children dressed and fed while I raced to the gym for a swim. Erm no. He makes sure he has pissed off out of the building before the DC wake and that he doesn't return until asleep again.
You can literally see the panic on his face if DS gets up early and he has to race to get out the door before DS sees him. Arse.

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