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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Exercise & Fitness: Advice and information for those following 5:2 / IF (Intermittent Fasting)

999 replies

BigChocFrenzyAteYourReindeer · 31/12/2013 01:51

Why Exercise ?

Maintaining a normal bodyweight and taking regular exercise are 2 major areas of life which we can address to improve our health.

Fasted training, i.e. training on FDs, seems to increase the benefits of both training and IF, but it is advisable to first become used to fasting

Exercise alone does not produce significant weight loss for most people. However it can improve body shape and can help overcome weight plateaux.

Regular exercise helps reduce the risk of obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart diesease, high blood pressure, some cancers, osteoporosis, dementia, depression.

  • Try to train regularly, building up to 3-6 days per week.
  • Develop a training routine you enjoy and want to continue long term.
  • Regular exercisers gain the greatest benefits over their lifetime and they can minimise biological aging, i.e. "Bend the Aging Curve" BendAge

WARNING: If you are very obese or have health issues, check with your GP that you are able to start exercising and also if there are types of exercise you should avoid.

Fat and Metabolism

Body fat is highly active tissue which secretes hormones (e.g. leptin, adiponectin) and microphages (which cause inflammation) directly into the bloodstream. These substances can significantly affect metabolism & weight and increase the risk of diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, stroke, some cancers.
E.g ref and ref

Visceral fat is more dangerous than subcutaneous - a study found that liposuction removing up to 20lb of the latter did not improve health indicators. Visceral fat needs to be reduced by exercise and a calorie deficit, preferably both together.

Hormesis

"What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger"
Hormesis Mattson and Hormesis can be applied to exercise, analagous to how 5:2 /IF uses it for nutrition.
Alternating between “extremes” of feast and fast (like 5:2) or intense training and rest, makes the body more resilient.

The intermittent stress of lifting an extreme weight or performing at high speed for a short period pushes the body to overcompensate and prepare for an even greater future challenge HormesisTrain and AntiFragile
The following recovery period avoids damage from over-stressing.

INEFFICIENT: Low-Medium Intensity Steady state Cardio

Steady state cardio is not necessary and should only be a small part of your weekly cardio, unless it is all you can manage to do.

Only high intensity exercise recruits the fast-twitch muscle fibers that have the most glycogen (stored glucose). Steady State Cardio does not empty the glucose stores in those particular muscles. Hence, the circulating glucose has nowhere to be stored — except as bodyfat.

Moreover, the muscle cells will lose their sensitivity to insulin and become inflamed by the high levels of insulin, which the body has produced to deal with the high levels of circulating glucose. The body mortars this inflammation with LDL cholesterol.

Hence, those exercising only at low-medium intensity are at greater risk of cardiovascular problems than high intensity exercisers SteadyState (pp. 31-34).
Obviously, non-exercisers have the highest risk of all.

RECOMMENDED TYPES of Exercise

HIIT cardio and resistance training / weight lifting are recommended to boost the effect of 5:2/IF, to increase weight loss, reduce body fat, retain muscle and maintain TDEE / BMR.

Anyone who is not specialising in a sport at a high level should aim to do a variety of training: HIIT cardio, resistance and flexibility.

HOW to Exercise

The cardio machines and the girlie pink dumbbells that gyms push are inadequate to significantly improve fitness or burn fat.
However, 10 mins walk on a treadmill or outside is beneficial after training, especially after heavy lifting.
Scientists have proved that cardio and resistance training can be done in the same session, without detriment to either, e.g. TrainBoth

Whether you join a gym or train at home or in the park:

  • Train as intensively as your time, health and fitness level allow.
  • Do not remain in your comfort zone, or you will not improve.
  • You are supposed to drip sweat and pant heavily !
However, a brisk 30 mins daily walk plus 5 mins hoop is better than nothing and if done regularly will bring some health benefits.

Flexibility

  • Stretching for 5 mins before and after each training session is recommended
  • Yoga and Pilates classes can be added if additional flexibility training is desired. Some such classes also provide additional strength / toning.

HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training)

HIIT is an exercise strategy which alternates brief intervals of high intensity exercise with less-intense recovery periods. Time intervals may be equal or different and their length and the number of sets depends on fitness level.

Start with one session per week and build up to a maximum of 3 (no more).

HIIT is very time-efficient, producing the greatest fitness benefit in the least time (the advantage of hormesis). However, beginners should build up gradually, starting say with just 1 or 2 intervals.

Scientists have proved that HIIT burns more fat than steady state lower intensity exercise and speeds up the metabolism, which helps burn more calories for up to 48 hrs.

HIIT increases both aerobic and anaerobic endurance

HIIT can be applied to cardio: e.g. cycling, running, skipping, jumping, mountain climbs
or to bodyweight exercises, e.g. squatting, situps, burpees, pressups

Most gyms offer classes, e.g.
spinning, circuit training, CrossFit, Tabata, Fartlek(Fartlek = HIIT with irregular intervals)
which each use a form of interval training.
These classes require less planning and are often more enjoyable (music, socialising, equipment) than training on your own.

A typical HIIT session could consist of:

  • 4 mins warmup
  • 8 sets of intervals
  • 4 mins cooldown
and last 12-60 mins in total.

Recovery time is usually half the high intensity time.
Examples of typical interval sets are:

  • 20 seconds high intensity + 10 secs recovery OR
  • 40 sec high + 20 sec low OR
  • 60 sec high + 30 sec low

Detailed HIIT example plans: (scroll down to Workouts section and ignore whether entitled "cutting" or "bulking") BodyBuild

RESISTANCE Training / LIFTING

This helps retain muscle mass during weight loss and hence to maintain TDEE.

It is easier in a gym, especially re equipment. You can lift in the weights area on your own OR in a pump class.
Whether @ gym or home, before you start lifting, have a few lessons with a trainer to learn the correct form and avoid injury.

It is best not to train the same muscle groups 2 days in succession, so have rest days, or cardio, or train different muscle groups on different days.
Try to build up to weight training for 30-60 mins twice per week.

WARNING
The "Heavy" lifting described here should not exceed bodyweight unless you are really fit and expert.
Women who have given birth and / or are aged 40+ have a higher risk of pelvic floor / prolapse injuries when lifting heavy than young non-mums.

Main Lifting / Resistance Exercises

Reps = the number of repetitions in a set of a particular lifting exercise
Sets are normally separated by brief rests
E.g. you might do 3 sets each of 12 reps all of the same exercise.

If you have access to dumbbells / barbells, then for maximum effect, work the large muscle groups. Alternatively, use bodyweight.
squats
bent-over rows (press button "female")
Behind neckPress (press button "female")
dead lift
The abs and smaller muscle groups will automatically be trained by these exercises, but you can add optionally 20 mins weekly abs exercises:

Basic Abs

  • Situps: build up to 3 sets of 20 reps. Try to put your arms in front of you, instead of behind your head
  • Angled situps: with one ankle resting on the opposite knee. 2 sets of 15 each side
  • Plank: 3 sets, each 45 secs
  • Leg extensions: legs bent 90 degrees, so your lower legs are parallel to the floor. Stretch each leg in turn, parallel to the floor. 3 sets of 10.

Lifting To increase Strength Rather than Muscle Mass
Lift as heavy as you can, low reps, with 1 minute rest between sets
e.g. 5 sets x 5 reps each, i.e. totalling 25 lifts.

Lifting To Build More Muscle
With a lower weight, do 3 sets x 8-20 reps, i.e. totalling 24-60 lifts.

Additionally, or if you don't have heavy barbells, use your bodyweight.
Example to build up to:

  • 3 sets of 30 press ups, proper ones, see detail below +.
  • 40 deep squats, with thighs parallel to floor, i.e. ATG (Arse to Grass) see ++.
  • 3 set of 8 reps inverted pullup /row Inverted OR assisted chin-ups on a gym machine OR full chin-ups if you can manage them (Amazon have pullup bars which fit over doors from about £15)

+Press ups

  • It is best to keep attempting one proper pressup rather than doing several dozen girlie ones with your knees on the floor.
  • Once you can do one pressup, you will soon be able to build up to 5, then 10 etc.
  • Tip: keep the abs rigid, so strong abs are as important as strong shoulders & arms.

++Squats

  • Are the best exercise for the large muscle group in bum and thighs.
  • Basic principle: It is like having a pee on a public loo - get your bum down low and pointing to the rear, but not actually touching the seat.
-Lean back on your heels, so that weight is on them, not on your toes. -For bodyweight squats, bring your arms forward -Keep your back straight, but angled slightly forward, not vertical.
  • Go down as far as you can without knee pain.

CAUTION With Leangains-Type Protocols

5:2 is an easier WOL than other forms of IF, with most days being NFDs during which the body can recuperate.

Some women have had injuries or health problems with very tough LeanGains-type protocols, which combine ADF or daily 16:8 with fasted lifting of multiples of body weight.

Some women have achieved excellent results on LeanGains-type; others had problems after a few months, or even from the start. Particularly at risk are women with very low (11-18%) body fat, possibly already with irregular menstruation, or with EDs.

Post-menopausal women seem to do well, as do men, presumably due to differences in hormones, body fat %, metabolism.

RECOMMENDATION: Don't lift more than your bodyweight and mostly lift well below it.

Running versus Walking

Walking is beneficial psychologically, is easy on the knee joints and has some physical benefits.

However, at speeds of 5mph or faster, running will burn more calories per mile than walking Ref . Typical values:

  • For running (5 mph and higher): Total calories burned per mile = .75 x body weight (in pounds); net calories (see ++) burned per mile = .63 x weight.
  • For walking (3 to 4 mph): Total calories burned per mile = .53 x body weight; net calories burned per mile = .30 x weight.

++ Note: net calories = total calories - cals the body would have burned at rest (calculated from BMR)

AVOID OSTEOPOROSIS

We start losing bone density from about age 35. Women can lose a great deal before, during and after menopause.

Other risk factors: Smoking, heavy drinking, inactive lifestyle, very slim build, family history of osteoporosis, longterm steroid use.

To retain bone strength and avoid a painfully disabled old age, start now:
Ideally weight bearing exercises that load the bone along its length

Impact exercise E.g. walking, running, jumping, skipping rope, step class, hitting a heavy punch bag.

Lifting: squats, press-ups, bench press, overhead press etc.

Squats are much better than lunges: The weight in a squat is transmitted down along the spine, through the hip, and down along the bones of the leg, whereas in a lunge, it is transmitted across the shinbone and puts pressure on the knee joint.

Cycling normally does NOT increase bone density as it does not really load bones along their length. A study found that cyclists who did no other exercise had low bone density because of the combo of this with their training Osteo

KETTLEBELLS

Useful exercise descriptions and videos: Kettle
Recommended for beginners (and shown in the link):
. Two-handed swing
. Sumo Deadlift
. Turkish Getup
. Swing
. Clean and Jerk
. Press

How to Choose a Gym (if you want to)

  • gym offpeak can be as cheap as £30 p.m. as you don't need expensive pools, sauna, juice bars, massage etc.
  • within journey time 20 mins
  • plenty of classes at times to suit you
  • creche if needed
  • don't bother with expense of a personal trainer.

Start with these classes if available:

  • weekly spin, because you can set your own resistance and speed 45-60 mins
  • any additional interval training class, see earlier for list.
  • weekly pump 60 mins
  • weekly abs class 15-30 mins

======================================

CALCULATORS:
Estimate your fitness age: FitAge
Estimate Vo2Max iTunes App: Vo2APP
Body Fat Calculator:BF
Healthy Body Fat Percentages at Different Ages:
HealthyBF
TDEE with detailed activity times: TDEE

More links: 52FastDietForum-Fasting & Exercise 52exercise GettingStronger.Org-Hormesis Hormesis GettingStronger.Org-Fitness Fitness LeanGains Protocols : Leangains MarksDailyApple-Home Workouts Without Equipment WorkAtHome

OP posts:
TalkinPeace · 14/02/2014 17:24

I've always worked out on an empty stomach because I do not eat breakfast on week days and go to the gym in the morning.
It never occurred to me to need food before exercise if I was not hungry.

ErrolTheDragon · 14/02/2014 20:12

Me too - and anything like running I wouldn't want to attempt after food, I'm sure it'd give me a stitch. ( I usually do eat breakfast but quite late)

womblesofwestminster · 15/02/2014 15:12

BigChocFrenzy I wonder if you or I are the 1 in 6 who are high responders? I wish there were a way to find out. Hmmm.

womblesofwestminster · 15/02/2014 15:13

Dudes, does anyone have some decent links about the benefits/science of HIIT?

BigChocFrenzy · 15/02/2014 17:35

Wombles Professor Jamie Timmons, one of the world's leading researchers into HIIT, gives an overview of the science in his foreward to Mosely's Fast Exercise book, which you should get if you download the KindleSample
I'll hunt up some of his science papers later.

Suzannewithaplan · 15/02/2014 17:58

the James Timmins study is here www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6823/9/3

he also has a talk on youtube

BigChocFrenzy · 15/02/2014 17:58

SCIENCE: Why HIIT works better than standard exercise

  1. HIIT increases the number of mitochondria in muscles, including the heart, more than standard exercise, thus making them stronger & more efficient and also increases fat-burning more.
    Every cell in our bodies contains mitochondria, sometimes thousands. Mitochondria produce energy and burn fat, so we want as many as poss.

  2. HIIT produces more fat-burning hormones. Since the abdomen has a high concentration of receptors for these hormones, HIIT is more likely to burn ab fat than standard exercise.

  3. HIIT increases "brown fat"
    Brown fat is good because it contains a high concentration of mitochondria, so it burns the other (bad) kinds of fat. Adults normally have very little brown fat - babies have more.

  4. Miscell from studies:

  • HIIT burns fat for longer than steady state after the exercise has finished
  • more fat burned for number of calories in exercise
  • more fat burned in shorter exercise time

Papers , also see their ref sections:
US-NIH
HIIT-Women
HIIT-Men
Wiki

Suzannewithaplan · 15/02/2014 18:30

BigChoc, thanks for the links:o

Interesting discussions in the studies.
I note that in the women's HIIT study the leaner women lost less fat, which supports the old diminishing returns thing..the leaner you are the harder it is to get even leaner

BigChocFrenzy · 15/02/2014 19:06

Exactly, Suzanne . This is why I am proceeding so cautiously now with 5:2 - I'm fairly lean and I don't want to lose muscle, just the last post-meno inch around my waist. So, I am eating over TDEE on NFDs and I have hardly any weekly deficit. I'm happy to take months to reach my ideal waist.

HIIT with 5:2 gave a major boost to my fitness last year, whereas I only expected small incremental advances at my age Smile

womblesofwestminster · 15/02/2014 19:25

BigChocFrenzy thanks so much! No2 has just made my day!

When I was at the gym today (a fast day!) I got the instructor to show me HIIT on the treadmill. It was so hardcore that I nearly followed through! (In fact I did wee myself a little, damn pelvic floor). The program alternated between 5.5mph rest jog and 8mph sprint. I did this for 2 miles. Does that sound like good HIIT? I am now officially addicted!

Does anyone know if HIIT is effected by fasting?

Suzannewithaplan · 15/02/2014 19:25

another thing that interested me from that study

'With regard to modality, studies have primarily utilized a stationary cycle ergometer, thus, little is known about the effects of other potential HIIE modalities such as rowing, walking, running, stair climbing, and swimming. That insulin resistance has recently been shown to primarily be located in leg muscle suggests that HIIE exercise that focuses on the legs is likely to show the greatest insulin sensitivity increases
How leg muscle adaptations to HIIE impact on subcutaneous and abdominal fat loss and other health markers compared to other regional adaptations is undetermined.'

when I read that I immediately thought of swimming, people commonly say that swimming isn't all that good for losing fat, if there is some truth in that perhaps it has to do with the fact that swimming uses the upper body muscle more than the lower.

My own experience is that swimming seemed helpful for keeping body fat down, then again it's never been my only form of exercise.
(not that my personal anecdotal evidence is statistically significant in any case!Blush )

BigChocFrenzy · 15/02/2014 21:19

Wombles Sounds like genuine HIIT, good for you. it should feel tough at first, but you will soon feel much fitter.

Suzanne Swimming tends to be done at a more constant pace and also to cause hunger. Also, few people swim at sufficient intensity, i.e. not panting. So, might also explain why swimming is not so good at fat-burning.
You are probably one of the minority who do swim hard, or your heavy lifting burns the fat.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/02/2014 21:41

Resistance Training for All Ages

Without resistance training, people start losing muscle mass from as young as 20.
Muscle plays a role in general health HealthDisease

So, it should be a part of everyone's exercise routine, using bodyweight, dumbbells, or barbells.
Women in particular need to start as young as possible, to avoid disability in later years from osteoporosis and muscular wastage.
Overview

People in their 30s and 40s who don't weight train will lose muscle and probably gain fat. Women, especially around the menopause, need resistance training to avoid this and loss of bone density MiddleAgeFem

B&W You already found this: Elderly men and women gain many benefits from weight training Elderly

Breadandwine · 15/02/2014 22:35

Elderly! Hmm… Not a word I generally use when applied to myself!

Grin

But thanks for the link, BCF.I'll read it later, at my leisure. ATM I've just come downstairs from putting GS1, who's staying for a few days, to bed - and I've 40 pints of stout to make up.

Suzannewithaplan · 15/02/2014 23:01

Sounds like pretty tough HIIT to me wombles, if I run I generally do a minute at 6.8mph and then walk for a min at 3.8mph.
But then I am short of leg and not much of a runner Blush

Bigchoc, yes swimming can induce hunger like nothing else, and thanks for more very interesting links.

Bread good luck with the stout I remember my dad brewing beer in big plastic bins, that was back in the 1970 when such things seemed to be more common!

BigChocFrenzy · 16/02/2014 00:08

B&W I think of you as a very fit breadmaker, just with white hair and plenty of leisure time. I should have typed "Retired Gent".
Apologies Blush

Breadandwine · 16/02/2014 00:58

That's exactly how I do my homebrew, Suzanne. I enjoy the whole process - making it, racking it into DJs and then, of course, drinking it! Grin

When I began, also in the 70s, the beer you made at home was far superior to the draft beer in the pubs. Now it seems the brewing trade has caught up with us and some of the Real Ales you can buy are terrific!

But at less than 50p for a pint, I'm not about to give up yet!

Thanks, BCF! No apologies are needed from you! (Flowers for all the links you post!)

My comment was made half in jest! But your original assertion is quite correct - I just thought I'd wind you up a little by choosing to take it personally! Grin

I've just read through the research and it's very encouraging! Thanks again!

BigChocFrenzy · 16/02/2014 11:41

B&W I thought you were kidding. However, it took me quite a while to accept emotionally I was middle-aged and I wouldn't always appreciate people referring to me as that !

When I was a little girl, I helped my dad make beer, also gin from sloes or blackberries.
In those days, it was ok for DCs to have a tiny sherry glass of alcohol on Sundays. I was allowed this (gin too !) from about 5 yrs old.
Hmm probably the SS would come calling now !
In my case, this started good habits, so I've never been even tipsy as an an adult. In fact I now just drink one glass of wine about every 3 months.

womblesofwestminster · 17/02/2014 19:56

Question: have any of you guys noticed a dip in appetite since starting HIIT?

TalkinPeace · 17/02/2014 20:09

I'm never hungry after exercise - even swimming.
I've trained myself to not want food till I get home
as I'm too tight to buy stuff at the gym

BigChocFrenzy · 17/02/2014 21:28

Yes, scientific studies have shown that intense exercise, such as HIIT or heavy lifting suppresses appetite for most folk, whereas moderate steady state exercise, such as jogging or swimming, tends to increase it.

(Tip doesn't do HIIT, but she uses Vulcan mind control to switch off appetite)

BigChocFrenzy · 17/02/2014 21:31

A few folk find that intense exercise 3-4 days per week lowers appetite permanently. For me, the effect lasts at most until the next morning.

TalkinPeace · 17/02/2014 22:34

Tee hee
Not just mind control, also wallet control : I'm allergic to paying £2.40 for a coffee when I have a kettle at home!
but yes, over time my appetite is massively reduced
I look at some of the menus I used to scoff and feel ill at the thought

Breadandwine · 18/02/2014 01:25

NSV alert!

Was in the pool this morning, with my son, who's visiting for a few days - and he commented on my physique! Talked about definition, and deltoids, pecs and all that.

So I'm quite chuffed, really!

It's reinforced my ambition - to be an 80-year-old hunk! Grin

Suzannewithaplan · 18/02/2014 10:43

That's fabulous Bread :o

I intend to also have a physique at 80, I'm sure it's possible if we just keep working on it!