Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Exercise & Fitness: Advice and information for those following 5:2 / IF (Intermittent Fasting)

999 replies

BigChocFrenzyAteYourReindeer · 31/12/2013 01:51

Why Exercise ?

Maintaining a normal bodyweight and taking regular exercise are 2 major areas of life which we can address to improve our health.

Fasted training, i.e. training on FDs, seems to increase the benefits of both training and IF, but it is advisable to first become used to fasting

Exercise alone does not produce significant weight loss for most people. However it can improve body shape and can help overcome weight plateaux.

Regular exercise helps reduce the risk of obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart diesease, high blood pressure, some cancers, osteoporosis, dementia, depression.

  • Try to train regularly, building up to 3-6 days per week.
  • Develop a training routine you enjoy and want to continue long term.
  • Regular exercisers gain the greatest benefits over their lifetime and they can minimise biological aging, i.e. "Bend the Aging Curve" BendAge

WARNING: If you are very obese or have health issues, check with your GP that you are able to start exercising and also if there are types of exercise you should avoid.

Fat and Metabolism

Body fat is highly active tissue which secretes hormones (e.g. leptin, adiponectin) and microphages (which cause inflammation) directly into the bloodstream. These substances can significantly affect metabolism & weight and increase the risk of diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, stroke, some cancers.
E.g ref and ref

Visceral fat is more dangerous than subcutaneous - a study found that liposuction removing up to 20lb of the latter did not improve health indicators. Visceral fat needs to be reduced by exercise and a calorie deficit, preferably both together.

Hormesis

"What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger"
Hormesis Mattson and Hormesis can be applied to exercise, analagous to how 5:2 /IF uses it for nutrition.
Alternating between “extremes” of feast and fast (like 5:2) or intense training and rest, makes the body more resilient.

The intermittent stress of lifting an extreme weight or performing at high speed for a short period pushes the body to overcompensate and prepare for an even greater future challenge HormesisTrain and AntiFragile
The following recovery period avoids damage from over-stressing.

INEFFICIENT: Low-Medium Intensity Steady state Cardio

Steady state cardio is not necessary and should only be a small part of your weekly cardio, unless it is all you can manage to do.

Only high intensity exercise recruits the fast-twitch muscle fibers that have the most glycogen (stored glucose). Steady State Cardio does not empty the glucose stores in those particular muscles. Hence, the circulating glucose has nowhere to be stored — except as bodyfat.

Moreover, the muscle cells will lose their sensitivity to insulin and become inflamed by the high levels of insulin, which the body has produced to deal with the high levels of circulating glucose. The body mortars this inflammation with LDL cholesterol.

Hence, those exercising only at low-medium intensity are at greater risk of cardiovascular problems than high intensity exercisers SteadyState (pp. 31-34).
Obviously, non-exercisers have the highest risk of all.

RECOMMENDED TYPES of Exercise

HIIT cardio and resistance training / weight lifting are recommended to boost the effect of 5:2/IF, to increase weight loss, reduce body fat, retain muscle and maintain TDEE / BMR.

Anyone who is not specialising in a sport at a high level should aim to do a variety of training: HIIT cardio, resistance and flexibility.

HOW to Exercise

The cardio machines and the girlie pink dumbbells that gyms push are inadequate to significantly improve fitness or burn fat.
However, 10 mins walk on a treadmill or outside is beneficial after training, especially after heavy lifting.
Scientists have proved that cardio and resistance training can be done in the same session, without detriment to either, e.g. TrainBoth

Whether you join a gym or train at home or in the park:

  • Train as intensively as your time, health and fitness level allow.
  • Do not remain in your comfort zone, or you will not improve.
  • You are supposed to drip sweat and pant heavily !
However, a brisk 30 mins daily walk plus 5 mins hoop is better than nothing and if done regularly will bring some health benefits.

Flexibility

  • Stretching for 5 mins before and after each training session is recommended
  • Yoga and Pilates classes can be added if additional flexibility training is desired. Some such classes also provide additional strength / toning.

HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training)

HIIT is an exercise strategy which alternates brief intervals of high intensity exercise with less-intense recovery periods. Time intervals may be equal or different and their length and the number of sets depends on fitness level.

Start with one session per week and build up to a maximum of 3 (no more).

HIIT is very time-efficient, producing the greatest fitness benefit in the least time (the advantage of hormesis). However, beginners should build up gradually, starting say with just 1 or 2 intervals.

Scientists have proved that HIIT burns more fat than steady state lower intensity exercise and speeds up the metabolism, which helps burn more calories for up to 48 hrs.

HIIT increases both aerobic and anaerobic endurance

HIIT can be applied to cardio: e.g. cycling, running, skipping, jumping, mountain climbs
or to bodyweight exercises, e.g. squatting, situps, burpees, pressups

Most gyms offer classes, e.g.
spinning, circuit training, CrossFit, Tabata, Fartlek(Fartlek = HIIT with irregular intervals)
which each use a form of interval training.
These classes require less planning and are often more enjoyable (music, socialising, equipment) than training on your own.

A typical HIIT session could consist of:

  • 4 mins warmup
  • 8 sets of intervals
  • 4 mins cooldown
and last 12-60 mins in total.

Recovery time is usually half the high intensity time.
Examples of typical interval sets are:

  • 20 seconds high intensity + 10 secs recovery OR
  • 40 sec high + 20 sec low OR
  • 60 sec high + 30 sec low

Detailed HIIT example plans: (scroll down to Workouts section and ignore whether entitled "cutting" or "bulking") BodyBuild

RESISTANCE Training / LIFTING

This helps retain muscle mass during weight loss and hence to maintain TDEE.

It is easier in a gym, especially re equipment. You can lift in the weights area on your own OR in a pump class.
Whether @ gym or home, before you start lifting, have a few lessons with a trainer to learn the correct form and avoid injury.

It is best not to train the same muscle groups 2 days in succession, so have rest days, or cardio, or train different muscle groups on different days.
Try to build up to weight training for 30-60 mins twice per week.

WARNING
The "Heavy" lifting described here should not exceed bodyweight unless you are really fit and expert.
Women who have given birth and / or are aged 40+ have a higher risk of pelvic floor / prolapse injuries when lifting heavy than young non-mums.

Main Lifting / Resistance Exercises

Reps = the number of repetitions in a set of a particular lifting exercise
Sets are normally separated by brief rests
E.g. you might do 3 sets each of 12 reps all of the same exercise.

If you have access to dumbbells / barbells, then for maximum effect, work the large muscle groups. Alternatively, use bodyweight.
squats
bent-over rows (press button "female")
Behind neckPress (press button "female")
dead lift
The abs and smaller muscle groups will automatically be trained by these exercises, but you can add optionally 20 mins weekly abs exercises:

Basic Abs

  • Situps: build up to 3 sets of 20 reps. Try to put your arms in front of you, instead of behind your head
  • Angled situps: with one ankle resting on the opposite knee. 2 sets of 15 each side
  • Plank: 3 sets, each 45 secs
  • Leg extensions: legs bent 90 degrees, so your lower legs are parallel to the floor. Stretch each leg in turn, parallel to the floor. 3 sets of 10.

Lifting To increase Strength Rather than Muscle Mass
Lift as heavy as you can, low reps, with 1 minute rest between sets
e.g. 5 sets x 5 reps each, i.e. totalling 25 lifts.

Lifting To Build More Muscle
With a lower weight, do 3 sets x 8-20 reps, i.e. totalling 24-60 lifts.

Additionally, or if you don't have heavy barbells, use your bodyweight.
Example to build up to:

  • 3 sets of 30 press ups, proper ones, see detail below +.
  • 40 deep squats, with thighs parallel to floor, i.e. ATG (Arse to Grass) see ++.
  • 3 set of 8 reps inverted pullup /row Inverted OR assisted chin-ups on a gym machine OR full chin-ups if you can manage them (Amazon have pullup bars which fit over doors from about £15)

+Press ups

  • It is best to keep attempting one proper pressup rather than doing several dozen girlie ones with your knees on the floor.
  • Once you can do one pressup, you will soon be able to build up to 5, then 10 etc.
  • Tip: keep the abs rigid, so strong abs are as important as strong shoulders & arms.

++Squats

  • Are the best exercise for the large muscle group in bum and thighs.
  • Basic principle: It is like having a pee on a public loo - get your bum down low and pointing to the rear, but not actually touching the seat.
-Lean back on your heels, so that weight is on them, not on your toes. -For bodyweight squats, bring your arms forward -Keep your back straight, but angled slightly forward, not vertical.
  • Go down as far as you can without knee pain.

CAUTION With Leangains-Type Protocols

5:2 is an easier WOL than other forms of IF, with most days being NFDs during which the body can recuperate.

Some women have had injuries or health problems with very tough LeanGains-type protocols, which combine ADF or daily 16:8 with fasted lifting of multiples of body weight.

Some women have achieved excellent results on LeanGains-type; others had problems after a few months, or even from the start. Particularly at risk are women with very low (11-18%) body fat, possibly already with irregular menstruation, or with EDs.

Post-menopausal women seem to do well, as do men, presumably due to differences in hormones, body fat %, metabolism.

RECOMMENDATION: Don't lift more than your bodyweight and mostly lift well below it.

Running versus Walking

Walking is beneficial psychologically, is easy on the knee joints and has some physical benefits.

However, at speeds of 5mph or faster, running will burn more calories per mile than walking Ref . Typical values:

  • For running (5 mph and higher): Total calories burned per mile = .75 x body weight (in pounds); net calories (see ++) burned per mile = .63 x weight.
  • For walking (3 to 4 mph): Total calories burned per mile = .53 x body weight; net calories burned per mile = .30 x weight.

++ Note: net calories = total calories - cals the body would have burned at rest (calculated from BMR)

AVOID OSTEOPOROSIS

We start losing bone density from about age 35. Women can lose a great deal before, during and after menopause.

Other risk factors: Smoking, heavy drinking, inactive lifestyle, very slim build, family history of osteoporosis, longterm steroid use.

To retain bone strength and avoid a painfully disabled old age, start now:
Ideally weight bearing exercises that load the bone along its length

Impact exercise E.g. walking, running, jumping, skipping rope, step class, hitting a heavy punch bag.

Lifting: squats, press-ups, bench press, overhead press etc.

Squats are much better than lunges: The weight in a squat is transmitted down along the spine, through the hip, and down along the bones of the leg, whereas in a lunge, it is transmitted across the shinbone and puts pressure on the knee joint.

Cycling normally does NOT increase bone density as it does not really load bones along their length. A study found that cyclists who did no other exercise had low bone density because of the combo of this with their training Osteo

KETTLEBELLS

Useful exercise descriptions and videos: Kettle
Recommended for beginners (and shown in the link):
. Two-handed swing
. Sumo Deadlift
. Turkish Getup
. Swing
. Clean and Jerk
. Press

How to Choose a Gym (if you want to)

  • gym offpeak can be as cheap as £30 p.m. as you don't need expensive pools, sauna, juice bars, massage etc.
  • within journey time 20 mins
  • plenty of classes at times to suit you
  • creche if needed
  • don't bother with expense of a personal trainer.

Start with these classes if available:

  • weekly spin, because you can set your own resistance and speed 45-60 mins
  • any additional interval training class, see earlier for list.
  • weekly pump 60 mins
  • weekly abs class 15-30 mins

======================================

CALCULATORS:
Estimate your fitness age: FitAge
Estimate Vo2Max iTunes App: Vo2APP
Body Fat Calculator:BF
Healthy Body Fat Percentages at Different Ages:
HealthyBF
TDEE with detailed activity times: TDEE

More links: 52FastDietForum-Fasting & Exercise 52exercise GettingStronger.Org-Hormesis Hormesis GettingStronger.Org-Fitness Fitness LeanGains Protocols : Leangains MarksDailyApple-Home Workouts Without Equipment WorkAtHome

OP posts:
Suzannewithaplan · 13/02/2014 10:27

Treadmills are in km or mph, 5mph is a slow jog for most people, 6.5kmph would be a pretty fast walk.

You'll find a site that'll convert m to km if you do a quick search

Suzannewithaplan · 13/02/2014 10:28

You can also search steady state cardio Wink

ErrolTheDragon · 13/02/2014 10:34

steady state cardio is just where you do the same intensity for a long time - eg set a constant resistance on a bike and keep steady rpm or the treadmill for a set speed and constant gradient - rather than using some sort of interval program. (changing speed and/or resistance/gradient)

It's been a while since I've used gym machines - some of them allow you to toggle between units but afaik those that don't tend to be in km nowadays. However, if it's telling you that you've done 2 miles then surely the speed will be in mph? 4 mph is a fast walk, 6.5 mph you'd be running.

If you want to convert units just type into a google search eg 6.5 miles in km.

womblesofwestminster · 13/02/2014 11:00

Thanks everyone.

6.5 is the speed setting that I use. Does it sound like mph? It's a comfortable run for me.

I'm concerned by this "steady state cardio" lark. Sounds like I've been doing it. Basically I run for 2 miles straight. Takes about 20 mins. So, I've been doing it all wrong? Shall I ask one of the trainers at the gym to set me up with a HIT program for the treadmill?

BigChocFrenzy · 13/02/2014 12:11

Steady state isn't "wrong". It's just not as efficient at oncreasing fitness and some health parameters as interval training, especially HIIT.
Any gym treadmill should have programs with variable speed or hills. That's one kind of interval.

You can do skipping or sprint intervals anywhere for great HIIT

Or you can do interesting classes like circuit training,boxing, TaeBbo etc which are typically HIIT in their very nature.
Most spin classes have a mixture of songs that are fast /slow, with heavy / light resistance, so they are HIIT, or at least interval training.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/02/2014 12:16

Conversion: 5 miles = 8 km

Examples:
6.5 mph = 10.5 kph, a decent running pace (What you are doing)
4 mph = 6.4 kph, a fast walk

BigChocFrenzy · 13/02/2014 12:24

Start at 20 mins interval training. You should feel out of breath by the end, or it wasn't sufficiently intense.

Suggestion:
-5 mins gradual warmup to decent pace

  • 20 mins interval or HIIT
  • 10 mins steady state jog
  • 2 mins cooldown walk

Build up gradually to say 30-60 mins HIIT, twice per week, or whatever you fancy.
You can always do steady state on an additional day, if you like doing it.

womblesofwestminster · 13/02/2014 13:08

Steady state isn't "wrong". It's just not as efficient at oncreasing fitness and some health parameters as interval training, especially HIIT

What's steady state like at burning middrift fat? That's my main concern at the mo. Which is best for that - steady state or HIIT?

BigChocFrenzy I've got a circuit training class tonight Grin

6.5 mph = 10.5 kph, a decent running pace (What you are doing)

Thanks. It feels decent. I do it in a 'steady state' for 2 miles. Should I change this? I need to remove the unsightly tire around my middle. Nothing is shifting it and the rest of my body is fab so it looks bizarre.

Suzannewithaplan · 13/02/2014 17:39

here's a study which suggests that whilst HIIT is effective for increasing fitness steady state may be more effective for decreasing visceral adiposity www.hindawi.com/journals/jobe/2014/834865/abs/

Suzannewithaplan · 13/02/2014 17:47

and one which suggests there's not much difference digitalcommons.hope.edu/curcp_11/28/

I like to mix it up, suggest a 'suck it and see' approach, actually I find resistance training helps to keep body fat down but I also to do some hiit and some steady state along with lower intensity stuff like plenty of walking.
Cover all bases Wink

BigChocFrenzy · 13/02/2014 19:51

HIIT v Steady State

Science is rarely unanimous, but the great majority of science journals and studies I've read conclude that HIIT is more time-efficient at fat-burning, also lowering cardio-vascular risk, E.g. Shredded, also Mosely's Fast Exercise book (see earlier posts).

Laval University, Canada 1994: young men and women who followed a 15-week HIIT program lost significantly more body fat than those following a 20-week continuous steady-state endurance program. Even though the steady-state program burned 15,000 calories more.

Fat-burning needs maximum intensity, to burn maximum calories. With HIIT, you are at maximum intensity for a longer total period than you could manage at steady state. This means HIIT burns more calories in the 24 hrs after exercise, because the body uses more energy to repair itself.

If you have hours to spare on the treadmill, you can burn a lot of calories, but your body gets used to the exercise, so you burn less and less in the same time.
HIIT keeps the body guessing more, so doesn't reduce the burn as much over time. Also, many people find it tends to reduce appetite, whereas steady state increases it.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/02/2014 20:01

Bodybuilders who want to build a lot of muscle mass should probably do steady state cardio rather than HIIT, but they are a very specialised group.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/02/2014 20:05

Really fast runners doing lots of 10ks or half-marathons obviously are burning loads of fat. HIIT would help their performance, but is probably unnecessary for fat-burning.

womblesofwestminster · 13/02/2014 20:41

Well I did it. I did my first ever hardcore workout (Metafit followed by circuits) on a fast day - and I wasn't prepared for what happened...

I felt fatigued, for the first ten minutes, and then BOOM! It was my best-ever performance! I was super human! I wasn't expecting that at all. Just goes to show that Mosley et al are right - fasting boosts not only brain performance. Amazing. I could have went on all night.

Has anyone else noticed a massive boost in workout performance on a fast day, or am I just a freak?

TalkinPeace · 13/02/2014 21:01

HIIT / Steady state
the other thing to bear in mind was the in teh original programme, MM was at one end of the scale of effectiveness of impacts of various exercise types
by definition there will be people at the other end of the scale

I'm one of them ... I really do not enjoy "fast" exercise like spin, even a minute of it
and I find swimming great for fat control etc etc

did not do gym stuff today as I had to work.
Still deciding what to do tomorrow ...

BigChocFrenzy · 13/02/2014 21:02

Well done, Wombles Great start to fasted training !
Yes, I have often noticed the same effect: after 10 mins, suddenly the body taps into a major energy source, which I presume are the fat reserves - what else ?

Did you manage to have a protein shake or BCAA right afterwards ? I find I need that, to avoid feeling knackered the next day. Logical, as the body needs to repair its muscles.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/02/2014 21:10

Tip Classic advice: the best exercise is the one you are able to do regularly.

We speculated your ultra-low (near corpse-like !) BP might be why you don't get on with HIIT. However, I thought that was just HIIT cardio. I wonder if some of your yoga and BOSU exercises are interval strength routines in effect ?

A friend in her 70s was put on vigorous HIIT cardio right after heart surgery Shock Her docs said it was the most effective method to improve heart health and reduce her tummy.

TalkinPeace · 13/02/2014 21:18

Bigchoc
Basically I lokie to move slowly ...
so I swim a mile of breast stroke non stop in 40 minutes ... but I do 13 strokes to each 20 metre length
yoga is slow but very strong
I enjoyed "dancesteps" but the jumping was too much for my knees
I love bodypump
but spin, with the 120 rpm type stuff I just hate
so my abs are like concrete but my muscles are slow

womblesofwestminster · 13/02/2014 21:27

BigChocFrenzy I'm currently having homemade low gi beef stew, which should hopefully replenish my protein.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/02/2014 21:30

A few very muscular blokes ( and even a very rare woman) stay slim and fit via heavy lifting, plus some steady state cardio. HIIT is counter-productive for them too.
However, that means really heavy, i.e. at least bodyweight, often multiples thereof.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/02/2014 21:31

Wombles Sounds yum and just what you need.

womblesofwestminster · 14/02/2014 10:14

I shall deffo be working out on a fast day in future. I was amazed at the results. I can't believe it's taken me to the age of 31 to figure this out.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/02/2014 13:26

I only found this out on 5:2 and I'm 57 !

Before 5:2, I occasionally did fasted Sunday morning spin due to over-eating Saturday night. I noticed the training went well, but I felt guilty about skipping a meal and thought I was damaging my health.
Blush Well, I know better now.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/02/2014 13:42

Mosely, HIIT and 5:2

His book relates that he belongs to the "non-responders", i.e. the 1 in 6 who do not improve cardio fitness (Vo2 Max) with interval training / HIIT. So, he just gets some of the health benefits plus the fat-burning.

The other 5 in 6 of us should receive more benefit than he did.

His fast blast routines can be a useful boost for those who already train a lot, but they are particularly useful for those who hate exercise and / or have little time. Those folk get the maximum benefit from minimum time.

His 5:2 and Fast Fitness / Strength books both use the latest science from very reputable scientists, but he makes it accessible to the wider public.
Important to realise that the science is not coming from a TV journalist, however distinguished; it is leading edge science that is now nearly mainstream in the science community.

ErrolTheDragon · 14/02/2014 15:11

I've finished this round of 30day shred. Holiday next week - then will start something else. Hopefully will get some walks in, and continue with the press-ups - various inclinations and hand positions!

Swipe left for the next trending thread