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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Exercise & Fitness: Advice and information for those following 5:2 / IF (Intermittent Fasting)

999 replies

BigChocFrenzyAteYourReindeer · 31/12/2013 01:51

Why Exercise ?

Maintaining a normal bodyweight and taking regular exercise are 2 major areas of life which we can address to improve our health.

Fasted training, i.e. training on FDs, seems to increase the benefits of both training and IF, but it is advisable to first become used to fasting

Exercise alone does not produce significant weight loss for most people. However it can improve body shape and can help overcome weight plateaux.

Regular exercise helps reduce the risk of obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart diesease, high blood pressure, some cancers, osteoporosis, dementia, depression.

  • Try to train regularly, building up to 3-6 days per week.
  • Develop a training routine you enjoy and want to continue long term.
  • Regular exercisers gain the greatest benefits over their lifetime and they can minimise biological aging, i.e. "Bend the Aging Curve" BendAge

WARNING: If you are very obese or have health issues, check with your GP that you are able to start exercising and also if there are types of exercise you should avoid.

Fat and Metabolism

Body fat is highly active tissue which secretes hormones (e.g. leptin, adiponectin) and microphages (which cause inflammation) directly into the bloodstream. These substances can significantly affect metabolism & weight and increase the risk of diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, stroke, some cancers.
E.g ref and ref

Visceral fat is more dangerous than subcutaneous - a study found that liposuction removing up to 20lb of the latter did not improve health indicators. Visceral fat needs to be reduced by exercise and a calorie deficit, preferably both together.

Hormesis

"What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger"
Hormesis Mattson and Hormesis can be applied to exercise, analagous to how 5:2 /IF uses it for nutrition.
Alternating between “extremes” of feast and fast (like 5:2) or intense training and rest, makes the body more resilient.

The intermittent stress of lifting an extreme weight or performing at high speed for a short period pushes the body to overcompensate and prepare for an even greater future challenge HormesisTrain and AntiFragile
The following recovery period avoids damage from over-stressing.

INEFFICIENT: Low-Medium Intensity Steady state Cardio

Steady state cardio is not necessary and should only be a small part of your weekly cardio, unless it is all you can manage to do.

Only high intensity exercise recruits the fast-twitch muscle fibers that have the most glycogen (stored glucose). Steady State Cardio does not empty the glucose stores in those particular muscles. Hence, the circulating glucose has nowhere to be stored — except as bodyfat.

Moreover, the muscle cells will lose their sensitivity to insulin and become inflamed by the high levels of insulin, which the body has produced to deal with the high levels of circulating glucose. The body mortars this inflammation with LDL cholesterol.

Hence, those exercising only at low-medium intensity are at greater risk of cardiovascular problems than high intensity exercisers SteadyState (pp. 31-34).
Obviously, non-exercisers have the highest risk of all.

RECOMMENDED TYPES of Exercise

HIIT cardio and resistance training / weight lifting are recommended to boost the effect of 5:2/IF, to increase weight loss, reduce body fat, retain muscle and maintain TDEE / BMR.

Anyone who is not specialising in a sport at a high level should aim to do a variety of training: HIIT cardio, resistance and flexibility.

HOW to Exercise

The cardio machines and the girlie pink dumbbells that gyms push are inadequate to significantly improve fitness or burn fat.
However, 10 mins walk on a treadmill or outside is beneficial after training, especially after heavy lifting.
Scientists have proved that cardio and resistance training can be done in the same session, without detriment to either, e.g. TrainBoth

Whether you join a gym or train at home or in the park:

  • Train as intensively as your time, health and fitness level allow.
  • Do not remain in your comfort zone, or you will not improve.
  • You are supposed to drip sweat and pant heavily !
However, a brisk 30 mins daily walk plus 5 mins hoop is better than nothing and if done regularly will bring some health benefits.

Flexibility

  • Stretching for 5 mins before and after each training session is recommended
  • Yoga and Pilates classes can be added if additional flexibility training is desired. Some such classes also provide additional strength / toning.

HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training)

HIIT is an exercise strategy which alternates brief intervals of high intensity exercise with less-intense recovery periods. Time intervals may be equal or different and their length and the number of sets depends on fitness level.

Start with one session per week and build up to a maximum of 3 (no more).

HIIT is very time-efficient, producing the greatest fitness benefit in the least time (the advantage of hormesis). However, beginners should build up gradually, starting say with just 1 or 2 intervals.

Scientists have proved that HIIT burns more fat than steady state lower intensity exercise and speeds up the metabolism, which helps burn more calories for up to 48 hrs.

HIIT increases both aerobic and anaerobic endurance

HIIT can be applied to cardio: e.g. cycling, running, skipping, jumping, mountain climbs
or to bodyweight exercises, e.g. squatting, situps, burpees, pressups

Most gyms offer classes, e.g.
spinning, circuit training, CrossFit, Tabata, Fartlek(Fartlek = HIIT with irregular intervals)
which each use a form of interval training.
These classes require less planning and are often more enjoyable (music, socialising, equipment) than training on your own.

A typical HIIT session could consist of:

  • 4 mins warmup
  • 8 sets of intervals
  • 4 mins cooldown
and last 12-60 mins in total.

Recovery time is usually half the high intensity time.
Examples of typical interval sets are:

  • 20 seconds high intensity + 10 secs recovery OR
  • 40 sec high + 20 sec low OR
  • 60 sec high + 30 sec low

Detailed HIIT example plans: (scroll down to Workouts section and ignore whether entitled "cutting" or "bulking") BodyBuild

RESISTANCE Training / LIFTING

This helps retain muscle mass during weight loss and hence to maintain TDEE.

It is easier in a gym, especially re equipment. You can lift in the weights area on your own OR in a pump class.
Whether @ gym or home, before you start lifting, have a few lessons with a trainer to learn the correct form and avoid injury.

It is best not to train the same muscle groups 2 days in succession, so have rest days, or cardio, or train different muscle groups on different days.
Try to build up to weight training for 30-60 mins twice per week.

WARNING
The "Heavy" lifting described here should not exceed bodyweight unless you are really fit and expert.
Women who have given birth and / or are aged 40+ have a higher risk of pelvic floor / prolapse injuries when lifting heavy than young non-mums.

Main Lifting / Resistance Exercises

Reps = the number of repetitions in a set of a particular lifting exercise
Sets are normally separated by brief rests
E.g. you might do 3 sets each of 12 reps all of the same exercise.

If you have access to dumbbells / barbells, then for maximum effect, work the large muscle groups. Alternatively, use bodyweight.
squats
bent-over rows (press button "female")
Behind neckPress (press button "female")
dead lift
The abs and smaller muscle groups will automatically be trained by these exercises, but you can add optionally 20 mins weekly abs exercises:

Basic Abs

  • Situps: build up to 3 sets of 20 reps. Try to put your arms in front of you, instead of behind your head
  • Angled situps: with one ankle resting on the opposite knee. 2 sets of 15 each side
  • Plank: 3 sets, each 45 secs
  • Leg extensions: legs bent 90 degrees, so your lower legs are parallel to the floor. Stretch each leg in turn, parallel to the floor. 3 sets of 10.

Lifting To increase Strength Rather than Muscle Mass
Lift as heavy as you can, low reps, with 1 minute rest between sets
e.g. 5 sets x 5 reps each, i.e. totalling 25 lifts.

Lifting To Build More Muscle
With a lower weight, do 3 sets x 8-20 reps, i.e. totalling 24-60 lifts.

Additionally, or if you don't have heavy barbells, use your bodyweight.
Example to build up to:

  • 3 sets of 30 press ups, proper ones, see detail below +.
  • 40 deep squats, with thighs parallel to floor, i.e. ATG (Arse to Grass) see ++.
  • 3 set of 8 reps inverted pullup /row Inverted OR assisted chin-ups on a gym machine OR full chin-ups if you can manage them (Amazon have pullup bars which fit over doors from about £15)

+Press ups

  • It is best to keep attempting one proper pressup rather than doing several dozen girlie ones with your knees on the floor.
  • Once you can do one pressup, you will soon be able to build up to 5, then 10 etc.
  • Tip: keep the abs rigid, so strong abs are as important as strong shoulders & arms.

++Squats

  • Are the best exercise for the large muscle group in bum and thighs.
  • Basic principle: It is like having a pee on a public loo - get your bum down low and pointing to the rear, but not actually touching the seat.
-Lean back on your heels, so that weight is on them, not on your toes. -For bodyweight squats, bring your arms forward -Keep your back straight, but angled slightly forward, not vertical.
  • Go down as far as you can without knee pain.

CAUTION With Leangains-Type Protocols

5:2 is an easier WOL than other forms of IF, with most days being NFDs during which the body can recuperate.

Some women have had injuries or health problems with very tough LeanGains-type protocols, which combine ADF or daily 16:8 with fasted lifting of multiples of body weight.

Some women have achieved excellent results on LeanGains-type; others had problems after a few months, or even from the start. Particularly at risk are women with very low (11-18%) body fat, possibly already with irregular menstruation, or with EDs.

Post-menopausal women seem to do well, as do men, presumably due to differences in hormones, body fat %, metabolism.

RECOMMENDATION: Don't lift more than your bodyweight and mostly lift well below it.

Running versus Walking

Walking is beneficial psychologically, is easy on the knee joints and has some physical benefits.

However, at speeds of 5mph or faster, running will burn more calories per mile than walking Ref . Typical values:

  • For running (5 mph and higher): Total calories burned per mile = .75 x body weight (in pounds); net calories (see ++) burned per mile = .63 x weight.
  • For walking (3 to 4 mph): Total calories burned per mile = .53 x body weight; net calories burned per mile = .30 x weight.

++ Note: net calories = total calories - cals the body would have burned at rest (calculated from BMR)

AVOID OSTEOPOROSIS

We start losing bone density from about age 35. Women can lose a great deal before, during and after menopause.

Other risk factors: Smoking, heavy drinking, inactive lifestyle, very slim build, family history of osteoporosis, longterm steroid use.

To retain bone strength and avoid a painfully disabled old age, start now:
Ideally weight bearing exercises that load the bone along its length

Impact exercise E.g. walking, running, jumping, skipping rope, step class, hitting a heavy punch bag.

Lifting: squats, press-ups, bench press, overhead press etc.

Squats are much better than lunges: The weight in a squat is transmitted down along the spine, through the hip, and down along the bones of the leg, whereas in a lunge, it is transmitted across the shinbone and puts pressure on the knee joint.

Cycling normally does NOT increase bone density as it does not really load bones along their length. A study found that cyclists who did no other exercise had low bone density because of the combo of this with their training Osteo

KETTLEBELLS

Useful exercise descriptions and videos: Kettle
Recommended for beginners (and shown in the link):
. Two-handed swing
. Sumo Deadlift
. Turkish Getup
. Swing
. Clean and Jerk
. Press

How to Choose a Gym (if you want to)

  • gym offpeak can be as cheap as £30 p.m. as you don't need expensive pools, sauna, juice bars, massage etc.
  • within journey time 20 mins
  • plenty of classes at times to suit you
  • creche if needed
  • don't bother with expense of a personal trainer.

Start with these classes if available:

  • weekly spin, because you can set your own resistance and speed 45-60 mins
  • any additional interval training class, see earlier for list.
  • weekly pump 60 mins
  • weekly abs class 15-30 mins

======================================

CALCULATORS:
Estimate your fitness age: FitAge
Estimate Vo2Max iTunes App: Vo2APP
Body Fat Calculator:BF
Healthy Body Fat Percentages at Different Ages:
HealthyBF
TDEE with detailed activity times: TDEE

More links: 52FastDietForum-Fasting & Exercise 52exercise GettingStronger.Org-Hormesis Hormesis GettingStronger.Org-Fitness Fitness LeanGains Protocols : Leangains MarksDailyApple-Home Workouts Without Equipment WorkAtHome

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 18/02/2014 19:47

Wayhay, B&W SuperDuper NSV !
I asked before if you thought your muscle definition had improved, but it is sooo much better to have an independent opinion.
You are going to be our ToyBoy on this thread Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 18/02/2014 19:55

FD today and I've just finished 2 hr fasted HIIT training: XFit and then spin.
I did LOF with protein shakes & veg juice. I was hungry before training, but not now, so I'll easily manage to finish at 600 cals.

I had loads of energy after XFit because it was the 1st time we didn't do any squats in the circuits. It was very noticeable that my quads weren't knackered, as they always are after we do ATG squats with barbells. Shows how much energy the big muscle groups use when fully loaded.

BetsyBell · 18/02/2014 21:36

Still coldy but felt slightly better after dinner so went to Tae Kwon Do. Tried to take it as easy as possible but am hoping to grade soon so really need it's good to get some practise in. We were doing some circuits and I'm afraid I had to bow out of doing too many press ups, but even in my weakened state they are better than press ups I was doing in January :)

I may regret it tomorrow but DH encouraged me to go (knowing how much I love it) and told me I could take the day off to recover as he's got plans with the kids for the day.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/02/2014 11:58

Grading ? ^^
Are you aiming for a Taekwondo belt ?

BetsyBell · 19/02/2014 12:38

Yes bigchoc... it's quite soon too Shock Grin

Boleh · 19/02/2014 14:20

OK - I am just checking in here after being gently nudged from the main thread - thanks BigChoc, all looks rather scary!

Does seem my trainer is doing things right with free weights and a world of evil squats - despite her lack of enthusiasm for 5:2 (my 3 weeks if consistent weight loss is gradually wearing her down though!).

Got a long way to go before I catch many of you folks though!

And Betsy good work on going for the Taekwondo grading - I'm being a total wuss and have skipped my karate grading! Not sure I'll get away with 'I don't think I'm ready yet' again - may need a well placed foot to my rear!!

BigChocFrenzy · 19/02/2014 15:14

Good for you, Betsy. A belt is a really good goal and something concrete to show for your work.
The white belt for beginners is supposed to represent innocence (and it just holds up your trousers
The yellow belt is the first step up the skill ladder, so maybe what you are going for. Or maybe you skip a level straight to green.
The next belts are blue, red (highly skilled and dangerous), black.

We expect to see a picture of you sporting your new belt with pride Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 19/02/2014 15:17

Boleh Welcome. Plenty of advice and encouragement here. Sing out if you have any questions and I'll try to help, or plenty of others here with experience. t

Now then ...... ^^
Get graded and get that damn karate belt !
We want to see a picture soon of a proudly belted Boleh

BetsyBell · 19/02/2014 15:29

I tried to chicken out after my last little bout of illness boleh and bcf but everyone I mentioned it to at the club was like "huh"? "what are you talking about?" so I thought, "ok, let's do this!" No grade skipping at this stage so it's yellow belt - there's a fair amount of forms and patterns to learn, not to mention all the spoken bits and pieces and Korean. It's a fair amount of work really!

And there's no way I'm letting all the other white belts skip ahead of me! Competitive? Moi? Grin Actually it's all really supportive and fab - our club has the same feel as these 5:2 threads in many ways.

Also, we're not allowed to spar (except with our instructor) till we get to green belt and having never fought anyone in my life I'm quite keen to give it a whirl. Don't tell the kids, but kicking and punching people is really fun. Weird at first admittedly!

BetsyBell · 19/02/2014 15:34

So boleh, when's your next grading opportunity? You should deffo go for it! We can proudly sport our yellow belts together! Should I mention I only started TKD in January?

BigChocFrenzy · 19/02/2014 15:39

Boleh I read that you are using 10kg dumbbells, so no longer pink girlie ones Smile
Check out the Crossfit pressups I described in earlier posts. Many folk here say they helped a lot to improve the full ones.
ATG squats (Arse To Grass) are so low that a couple of sets of 10 are a tough workout even just bodyweight.

More muscle will help burn fat, but high intensity cardio, like HIIT, will accelerate this.
Ask if your gym also has an HIIT spin class, not the spin with constant speed. You at least need sprints alternating with high resistance and a few seconds break between each song.
You can try skipping, which burns lots of calories and soon gets you fit. Start at 5 mins and build up to 15 mins, say weekly.

Most martial arts combine HIIT with strength and are also a lot of fun, so keep up the karate.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/02/2014 15:52

Betsy sounds really determined now. I totally agree, don't let the others get ahead of you.
It would be lovely if you can both post pix of your sparkly new belts Smile

In boxing, we don't have grades, but the trainer slaps us like puppies whenever we don't block fast enough !
Those of us who started at least a year ago are allowed to spar together, with gum-shields. It is totally exhausting sparring with the trainer, who is an ex-pro.
I love the heavy punchbag best of all. I really hammer it hard and get rid of any stress. I feel so cleansed afterwards.
We begin and end boxing with Tabata (burpees, squats, mountain climbs, punches etc) so we burn masses of energy.

womblesofwestminster · 19/02/2014 20:30

Dudes, what is it about HIIT that's so effective? I'm seeing results after just one week!

I know that HIIT is more effective at fat burning (particularly around the waist), but why?

BigChocFrenzy · 19/02/2014 23:19

Wombles I posted this a while ago, maybe got lost in the thread.

SCIENCE: Why HIIT works better than standard exercise

  1. HIIT increases the number of mitochondria in muscles, including the heart, more than standard exercise, thus making them stronger & more efficient and also increases fat-burning more.
    Every cell in our bodies contains mitochondria, sometimes thousands. Mitochondria produce energy and burn fat, so we want as many as poss.

  2. HIIT produces more fat-burning hormones. Since the abdomen has a high concentration of receptors for these hormones, HIIT is more likely to burn ab fat than standard exercise.

  3. HIIT increases "brown fat"
    Brown fat is good because it contains a high concentration of mitochondria, so it burns the other (bad) kinds of fat. Adults normally have very little brown fat - babies have more.

  4. Miscell from studies:

  • it burns fat for longer than steady state after the exercise has finished
  • more fat burned for number of calories in exercise
  • more fat burned in shorter exercise time

Science papers, also see their ref sections at the back:
Wiki
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2991639/ US-NIH]]
HIIT-Women
HIIT-Men

Boleh · 20/02/2014 09:47

Wow Betsy that is serious determination! Go for it Smile very impressive to progress so quickly.

Our belts are a little different, IIRC we go white, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, red, brown, black so a few more smaller stages I guess.

Confession time now - I started nearly a year ago and am currently a green belt.

I did my first grading after a month or so and had a horrible time, we did our kata with the kids class and I was surrounded by under 6's was terrified of standing on one and got in an utter tangle (I may have cried after Blush ) I went back full of determination to every class for the next 3 months and did the double at my next grading skipped orange and went to green but since then the kata has taken an exponential leap on difficulty in my eyes and I never seem to know what the heck my limbs are meant to do! I'm also a bit scared of sparring - which we do lightly in class and should be light in grading but I'm not sure - starts at purple.

So, I skipped the grading just after Christmas and I guess the next one will be in a couple of months.

I haven't been going to classes that often so I'm way behind now too but I'm going tonight (assuming I get off the phone and get changed). Despite the epic achiness from the gym last night - I hadn't realised I was coasting a bit until I got moved to the intermediate level exercises last night!

So - thanks for the kick - I'm back on it!

BigChoc I do miss boxercise although we never did proper sparring, it's not offered at this gym - it's a small gym at the work social club so no real classes except karate.

Suzannewithaplan · 20/02/2014 12:34

I wonder to what extent weight training counts as HIIT, especially if performed at a fast pace such that you are out of breath after a set?

womblesofwestminster · 20/02/2014 19:02

Ouch Suzannewithaplan surely that would cause injury?

Suzannewithaplan · 20/02/2014 19:17

well doesn't seem to and I've been training like that for several years...maybe I didn't explain myself ConfusedConfused

applejelly · 20/02/2014 19:21

Suzanne I was wondering the same thing. Do you wear a HRM when lifting? Would be interesting to know what your HR does during a set as that might give you an idea.

Suzannewithaplan · 20/02/2014 19:41

Apple, I have in the past worn an hrm, it goes up quite a lot during sets especially compound exercises, I've been focusing on making my weight training more hiit style, shorter rests, more repping out with light weights after the heavy sets etc

I think I've dropped a little fat, but that might be down to other changes I've made.

A bit tempted to drop all cardio and just focus on strength training just to see what happens, then again I'm paranoid that if I gain any body fat at my 'sensitive' age I'll not be able to lose it again Blush

I used to exclusively weight train and eat a lot more junk than I do now, was reasonably lean then...sometimes wonder if all the cardio is worth it just to have a little less fat Hmm

BigChocFrenzy · 21/02/2014 20:41

Suzanne
For HIIT, you could try try heavy lifting intervals with breaks, e.g. 1-2 mins set with 1-2 min break high intensity, whatever suits you.
BUT intensity should be via the heavy weight, NOT speed, or I think you risk injury.

I'm sure HIIT lifting would be good for fitness - like Mosely's "Fast Strength".
The studies I've read about HIIT fat-burning used stationary bikes, because it's easy to quantify everything. However, although I'm confident that interval sprint runs would burn fat just as well as cycling, I don't know about interval lifting.
Hmm
Heavy lifting and 16:8 without cardio works very well for many men, also younger and / or leaner women. I haven't heard of women 40+ being successful without cardio.
However, as you just want to maintain, not lose, you might be ok.

I understand your caution about dropping cardio. Women in particular find that successful weight loss techniques from their younger days don't work as well 10 years later, especially around or after menopause.

BigChocFrenzy · 21/02/2014 22:30

I understand wanting to give up cardio if you only do steady state - boooring.
Why not try an interval spin class or martial arts instead ?
If your gym has nothing suitable, interval sprints outside or skipping are HIIT. Tempted ?

Suzannewithaplan · 21/02/2014 22:41

Thanks for the suggestions Bigchoc, I doubt I'll give up cardio, but I have reduced it a little because I've increased the amount of lifting I do and I've a little less energy.

I think really I was speculating as to whether lifting has some of the benefits of hiit style cardio.

I wish it was possible to more accurately measure changes in body composition other than scales the tape measure and the mirror.

I want a home body scanner which will measure all fat deposits to the milligram!

BigChocFrenzy · 21/02/2014 22:54

I thought if you swapped your steady state cardio for HIIT, it would give more bang for your time. You could try for 3 weeks, say and see if you like it.
You wouldn't gain fat, might even lose a sliver
Smile

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