The 5:2 thread number 31 - Getting healthier one day at a time.

[BetsyBell]

The continuing thread for those of us following the 5:2 fast or other forms of fasting such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8.

The 5:2 diet was featured on Horizon in August 2012 and essentially requires you to fast for 2 non-consecutive days per week. The other 5 days, you can eat normally - or approximately your Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE - see explanation below). 4:3 is the same except you fast on 3 days in the week. Alternate-day fasting (ADF) is just how it sounds; you fast every other day. 16:8 is another form where you stick to only eating in an 8 hour window each day, therefore fasting for 16 hours each day.

By "fasting", we mean that we keep our calorie consumption very low, around 500 calories on average for a woman, 600 for a man, on those days.

You'll find on these threads we use a number of acronyms. If you're new to the threads, or Mumsnet in general, they might not make much sense.

WOE/WOL = Way Of Eating/Way Of Life. We use this term instead of "diet" as many of us see this as something to do in the long term.

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a website or app many use for keeping track of the number of calories they're eating.

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, quantifies the number of calories you burn in a day. This measure is best estimated by scaling your Basal Metabolic Rate to your level of activity. TDEE is critical in tailoring your nutrition plan to desired fitness goals. Here is a link to a calculator to help you figure out how many calories you should be eating in a day.

NFD = Non fast day

NSV = Non scale victory

Michael Mosley has a website to accompany his book on the subject. Please go check it out, as he's the whole reason most of us are here!

Lurkers and new starters: please just jump in and post - you'll find a lot of support here and we’re a friendly bunch.

Here is a list of links to get you started with this way of eating. Please let us know if you find a new article or some other information online:

All our previous threads can be found by browsing through the fasting section of the site.

Another thread which breadandwine has started is a good resource for some of the tips and links that get lost in these big threads. In addition to sharing links, we try to condense some of our top tips for fasting there. Keep in mind, we all do this differently, so these are just tips, not rules. This might be a good place to catch up with us if you're feeling a bit lost!

eatriskier’s thread has some lovely inspiring stories which are worth checking out if you want some motivation to get started or keep going through a plateau. Please add your own too.

frenchfancy has a recipe thread over here, please post any low-calorie recipes there so they don't get lost in these bigger threads!

If you've been at this a while and are moving on to maintaining your goal weight, there is a thread here to discuss that.

Here is the link to the BBC article regarding Michael Mosley's findings, which was featured on Horizon.

There's a link to the aforementioned Horizon programme here.

A blog post here gives some of the scientific explanation for why this way of eating helps you to not only lose weight, but improve your all-around health.

This link nicely demonstrates that there are many body ‘right’ body shapes and types, because what we are actually aiming for is low body fat for fitness and health.

A Telegraph article which comments on the diet and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley himself, very informative if you're just starting. (I highly recommend this for an overview)

A study discussed here gives commentary specifically addressing the effect of this diet on obese people (both men and women), with regard to both health and weight loss. ("After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4 cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant.) it also mentions "Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%).")

Something to consider if you are currently your ideal BMI: this appears to suggest the benefits for women at a lower BMI might not be seeing the same health benefits that are found on men at their ideal BMI.

A BIG THANK YOU to all who have been contributing. Most of us are learning this way of eating as we go along. All of the links above have been posted by others in our previous threads, and they've been very helpful.

A HUGE THANK YOU to Greeneggsandnicht for putting together all this info and resources into one concise OP text, much appreciated by so many 5:2ers!

Come join us, and tell us about your experiences with this diet!

There's about 2,000 calories difference! I plan to stick as much as possible, but don't want to not eat much over Christmas if I have an extra 2,000 calories a day I could be playing with...

200, obviously!!

Sorry, stressed over bank card not working when trying to order something!

SparklyBoots

Please understand that I am not coming from a position of any real personal experience on ED issues, or from a professionally qualified to comment stand point.

If you know that rules are your trigger, then maybe you should disregard my comment about working with them.

Your initial comment was that 'your pattern is extreme. Not something that you had booted after therapy. So if you know of old, that rules set you off down that slippery slope, then perhaps you really should avoid it.

I was trying to find a way to put your habits to good use. Not to disregard 4 yrs of therapy by embracing food rules through 5:2. I would just like to make it clear that I am not advising you to go against any of the advice of your therapist/therapy.

Only you really knows how your mind works. It would be disastrous to start experimenting with a know danger zone before you are ready.

Are you in a position where you can contact an old therapist and have a proper conversation about it??

If they believe you are in a better place now to attempt 5:2 and say so, then that is different story.

So now having read your second post with the extra info, if we were to ignore all of the 'rules' part of my original post. I would say your problem lies here...

What I struggle with is the day after, I feel out of control, it's like I'm honour bound to eat everything I see/ can imagine. I'm hoping it's novelty of 'allowing' overeating without guilt and will wear off.

Nowhere in 5:2 does it suggest eating anything you can see/imagine on a nfd is a good thing, or that you are 'allowed to overeat'. So if you really want to make this work you need to focus on the nfd aspect of 5:2.
Because what this lifestyle actually promotes, is having a healthy relationship with food and our bodies hunger levels. Not starving. Not bingeing. Ever!

Good afternoon all,

The last few days have been tremendously stressful at Riskier Towers. After the third day of DD just peeing everywhere after being told something she didn't like (as in things like 'time to put your puzzle away'), and DS throwing tantrums left right and centre I had a mini breakdown and a full on row with DH. I am so full of stress and rage today its beyond belief. But I've fobbed DD off on MIL, got my B12 jab and undertaken a bit of retail therapy with DS and am feeling a little better, although very on edge. DH has pulled his head out of his backside in so far as it ever gets out of there and DS is still doing his best to wind me up though so I can't calm down fully.

A few stressful days to come too we've decided we need to rethink how to do everything with DD in a positive interaction way and I don't think she is going to like the changes straight off. Plus DH and I are going to have to snap out of our bad habits too. But DH and I have grabbed control of our eating and are both the lightest we've ever been as adults so if we can do that then we can do this too.

Thanks for letting me moan. Please go back to successful FDs/NFDs.

Thanks somewhere I think rather than 'scraping by metabolically' my plateau is more likely due to weekend excesses! I truly feel evangelical about this way of life...it has ended many years of stupid unsuccessful dieting, BUT, I think, psychologically, I should step away from the high/low of fast/feast for a few weeks to sort my head out. I may do an odd FD but more likely 16/8 or 18/6.

Cuckoo - I don't know what to say. I get so much more kindness from people who haven't even met me in real life than I do from real life people. Partly because I don't really tell them much as I seem to have done nothing but moan for years and I am sure people are sick of hearing it. Having children is amazing but it has made me ill, lose myself and has been a million time harder than I ever expected. I have two friends from when we were at school but we live 100's of miles apart and two school mums though all of us have kids at different schools now so not someone I see on a daily or even weekly basis.

I hadn't really thought, or realised, about depression being something that is never cured and gone away for good. If I allow myself to sit and acknowledge that I will always have an element of it I think I will stress and worry a lot less when I have a down day, as it doesn't have to mean I am going full on downhill again.

I seem to be really low in the first and last days of the TOTM and that is throwing me a bit as I don't know what to make of it.

Lately my DD has been diagnosed with a problem she has had for years but we never knew, my youngest two children have had to move schools, I have been threw a court case against someone who assaulted me as a child and are now in the process of taking it to the next stage criminal case and we are managing on £100s less each month due to dh new job and it is all too much. We have lost three pets in 6 months and I just want some good stuff to happen. And I have a 6 figure legal bill to pay too.

Good luck to you angie

I'm having a great FD today. Have napped and sorta can't be bothered to eat.

sparkly it sounds a bit like playing with fire... Have you got someone who knows you who you can discuss it with? We would all slap you if you ate too little but would that work?

X

SparklyBoots

Me again!

Bloody hell! Wish you had included the info from the second post in the first post!

It's a minefield of not wanting to say the wrong thing or have it taken out of context by the 'crazies'!

Easy to see why the NO ENTRY sign is often put up.

But I guess that is exactly what you meant by wanting the feedback of others about this WOL. Must get frustrating for you. Understand though, that coming the other way is slightly worrying to say the least!

One thing you said though in your original post....

If you can get your eating habits perfect, then life will be perfect.

....... Uh! No it won't!..... Life is a big pile of shite sometimes. What you do or don't eat will have no effect whatsoever on whether or not a meteor will land, if your electricity bill goes up or if a loved one becomes ill and so on...

Separating how we use/feel about food (or alcohol, or drugs, or self harm) from our levels of happiness/stress, and not using it as a weapon or salve for our problems is the key.

Most of us on 5:2, without eating disorders, could probably link our weight gain to how unhappy we have felt in certain areas of our lives.

Understanding that food is a fuel for our bodies and that to consume either too much, or too little on a regular basis, is unhealthy for our long term health (and surely therefore happiness), is what 5:2 is all about.

5:2 helps to put many of us back in touch with natural feelings of hunger, currently being ignored by overeating, and to re educate ourselves on what a healthy amount of food is for our bodies on a daily basis. That means, respecting the total daily energy expenditure our bodies need, and not ignoring it either way.

But have no doubt, life will keep on offering challenges. Disconnecting our stomachs from the drama in our heads, is part of the battle!

sparkly we could even earslap you

Agree totally on the "fasting is mental" advice being spelled out here.

ArtDeco - your TDEE is just an approximation. You obviously ACTUALLY use up different amounts each day, so it's an average, and a very crude one at that. And it's very hard to eat to an EXACT number each and every day, let alone measure your food so precisely. So 200 cals really isn't a big difference, given that there's probably a tolerance of +/- 100 cals just from measuring and recording.

Pick a number. Try it for a few weeks. Assess results. Amend number.

Have name changed. sparkly. In my experience, my ED has, so far, been cured on 5:2! Whilst i know this is not a forum for ED's so maybe shouldn't be discussed in full but I've found that this WOL has been brilliant. I've had 20years of binging, vomiting, no end of diets and god know what. And I never lost weight. Yes, my ED was probably minimal compared to some -sometimes I would binge/vomit twice a week, sometimes once a fortnight but I can honestly say it has happened once in the last 6 months and I feel like a weight has been lifted from my shoulders, I know longer carry a dirty little secret and I feel completely in control. And I really don't feel the need to go mad the day after a FD, in fact, I'm hardly hungry the day after which is a pain in the arse

Toffee I won't rattle off my issues, but let me reassure you that I have had plenty of depression inducing times too and have tried to deal with it in various ways over the years.

I actually think I have been depressed since childhood. Like single digit childhood. As a mum now, I can see my childhood through new eyes and it is quite upsetting to know that what I always just accepted as normal, was actually not. I see things in dd sometimes and it terrifies me to think she may go down same path. Difference being, my mum had 5 of us and as a military wife who was mentally ill herself, no time to really notice these things.

The thing with depression is that it doesn't define who we are as a person. Just how we feel when it takes hold. I am either really cheerful, upbeat, just glad to be alive, smell that fresh air ain't it great sort, who just gets on with things and is assumed to be 'so strong'; Or I am a hopeless, let me just die so I don't have to work out how the fuck to get through another day on this soul destroying planet, painfully, heartbrokenly sad individual.

For me, suddenly finding out one day, after years of not knowing, that I was actually depressed, was both a relief and a curse.

I was glad to finally have a reason for things, but at the same time there was an element of we'll just do bish bosh and fix it, then I'll be all cured and can go back to 'normal'. Old funny, happy me.

The curse came when I realised that none of the solutions were either right for me, or lasted long enough.

I did notice some major improvements through certain methods, and have clung to these. I got enough of a glimpse to know that things could get better, and gave up on trying to find an all or nothing cure, but to just take improvements as they came.

I now accept that depression, and tendencies towards it will always be a part of my life. I try to manage it rather than cure it.

Being totally honest with myself about who I am, where I've come from, how I'm feeling, where I want to get to and what I can realistically achieve, is vital. Ignoring the signs is the absolute worst!

Knowing that it is part of who you are, does take the pressure off enormously. I think we create some mythical previous state of mind whereby we were so happy and with it and in control, that it just increases the gulf between where we are and where we want to be (again).

It is not right or ok to feel out of control and seriously depressed without treating it, but it is ok to say, this isn't just going to go away with a magic pill or a bit of counselling and stay away forever. Like watching your weight, I think it is a constant balance.

You have loads of crap on now = So things are getting on top of you.

If you are feeling like you can't cope go back to docs or look into some ways to treat it. The most important thing is not to ignore!!!!!

Apologies for all the EPIC posts everyone!

I'm like buses, don't see one for ages, then baaamm!!!

(puts down smoking laptop and rushes off to take some of own advice)

toffee
cuckoo
sparkling

I've never had an ED, but long ago realised that all ED are the same - anorexia, bulimia, overeating.
They are a coping mechanism for other forms of stress and the long term impact is a disconnect between the stomach and the brain.
Part of successfully bringing weight under control involves successfully realising that the food is a symptom not the cause.

The allegory I always use at work is "onion peeling"
Rather than trying to manage the whole onion, peel off one layer at a time, deal with that, and after a while you'll get to the core issue
which by then will not seem nearly as large.

5:2 is an unusual way of eating (for modern times) in that it makes no attempt at a "steady state"
and it would appear that the acceptance of variation is helping some people to peel parts of the onion.

BUT
It takes time.
Slow and steady is far more likely to be successful than trying for instant results.
I've slowly and steadily fluctuated up and down by around 3lb over the last year.
But as the central point is one I'm happy with, its cool.

You'll get there
but give your brains time to catch up with your bodies.
Because you're worth it

I want to give everyone on this thread a big hug! What a wonderful supportive bunch this is.

and extra hugs to those going through difficult times, please always vent on here as you need to.

My brain is fried/head pounding today so can't offer any sort of constructive help or advice to anyone but have more big squishy hugs all round you lovely lot xxxx

Cuckoo - talked to DH earlier about the legal stuff and nearly cried. Then had to talk to DS2's teacher and the deputy head as he has been in bother today and nearly cried again. Just talked to DS2 and he really did cry. When will I get a break from stress and worry?

I have definitely been depressed since at least my early teens. I can't remember much before that but wouldn't be surprised if I was younger. I never got any help until I had DC1 and got PND.

I have known for a long time that no tablets will help and counselling hasn't either. I could go back on meds but the side effects are horrible and I would just be in a fog all the time which is no good.

I see me in my children and find it impossible to not assume they feel what I feel. My childhood was foster homes and children homes, numerous moves and horrible. There childhood is mum and dad in one home, 3 schools which is not great but they have a lovely life.

I am a very emotional person and either throw my toys out of the pram or go into denial.

TIP - I definitely see - or saw - food as a fix, a medicine, a make me feel better crutch. I used to be happy getting through a tough day at work if I knew I had chocolate, crisps, a coke to have in the evening. I would feel happy if I knew I had a treat, happy if I could eat, sad if I felt rubbish after stuffing my face and a failure when I was trying to lose weight and ate for comfort.

I just want someone to look after me sometimes. I have never had it, ever, and I want it .

what I felt, not feel (the kids sentence).

I hope you feel better soon BetsyBell.

For what it's worth, in the 14 or so months I've been perusing these threads, I can't recall any contra-indication from posters regarding EDs.

On the contrary, I've seen several cautious remarks about the positivity of this WOL on ED sufferers.

I think Cuckoo's remark above, about 'arse-covering', is on the mark.

Oh dear I've been at work all day then out doing dc sporty stuff and cant even think about catching up properly. Suffice to say you are all amazing people and I know I am the first to turn to food if things get even a little bit tricky, so hats off to anyone managing to fast whilst coping with all the crap that life can throw at them.

On the plus side, far too busy to eat so successful FD of 200 cals so far, will probably have a cuppa then an early night [old fart emoticon]

Gosh this thread moves fast!
nottobeobvious yes I'm postpartum 5 week's this week. I know in been hard o myself but I have to be because I'm a greedy pig and then I feel really low when I eat too much so I need some kind of plan for mental well being!
I had a good fast day Monday a low calorie healthy eating day yesterday Im sure it was only a out 700 calories but today I ate crisps and chOc because I was In pain grim period and spd, hopefully I've not damaged my week! Fast day tomorrow looking forward to it!

Toffee I was the same. Had it all there under surface but it wasn't until dd was born during a particularly difficult year, that my depression came to light. My health visitor fortunately booked a docs app and took me.

After that I pretty much turned into a recluse and lived life in a cycle of denial for years, but ultimately going nowhere.

One day I just snapped, and thought 'Hey, FUCK YOU depression! I am not going to let you do this to my daughter or to me. I have done nothing to deserve all this crap and even if I can't take control of anything else in this life, I will be the absolutely best mother I can possibly be, for my daughter. I cannot allow this cycle to continue. Part of that means being a living/healthy/happy/balanced individual.

I am soooooo over being depressed. Sooooo over letting it rule my life. I have had enough!

So now, I'm fighting back. I don't take meds either, they don't seem to agree with me and I'm happier not taking them. I just felt like a zombie. But I do make a conscious effort to take care of myself regarding my mental health now.

I'm not perfect, and I do still struggle sometimes. But on the whole I am much improved on where I was this time last year, and a million times better than the year before. I know what my triggers are, apart from fresh new crap!, so I'm always vigilant for an episode. I have stripped back the bare bones of my life figuring out as much as I can about the whys and wherefores of who I am and I try to make the best of things without asking the impossible from myself.

I can talk openly and freely about my experiences with depression because I am not ashamed of it and really feel that it is something still so hushed up by society in general.

My weight gain came more from drinking too much, rather than eating, in my self medicating years, along with lack of activity. But I gave up smoking when preg with dd and started once or twice (only for couple of months) in the years following.
Each time I stopped, I realise I used food to replace fags. When I cut back drinking to a mere couple of bottles of wine a week (one for fri, one for sat) I used food to keep my mouth and hands busy. I wouldn't say I've ever been a binger, but I do like rich food and I was terrible grazer.

I stopped drinking the regular weekend wine in April and that kick started my weight loss. Even now I can feel a massive difference if I indulge in wine during a week. Think the effect on my body is akin to eating bread!! Bloat city, and slows my weight loss hugely. I am fortunate to have escaped without any permanent drinking issues in that I am able to leave it. But it was a struggle to begin!
Now I can enjoy it from time to time, but I know the damage it does to my head (massive depressant) not to mention waistline, so it has killed that love affair somewhat!

What I'm trying to say is, my name is Cuckoo and I suffer from depression, but it is not who I am. I am taking control of my life back one day at a time, and so can you Toffee. I may always have to deal with the dreaded D but I won't let it take over. I will always fight it by doing all of those things I know I should do, to combat it.

You have had a shitty horrid childhood, and you are obviously doing an amazing job by your kids. Don't expect more of yourself than is humanly possible and lean on us lot whenever you want/need to.

Incidentally one of the things that really started to help me was hypnotherapy CDs. I have a few and still use them for top ups as and when. I wasn't sure what to expect but as part of my I'll try anything natural approach, I gave it a go and was immediately surprised by the positive effects.

I am happy to email you details if interested X

Bloody waffled again haven't I! Still, it's nice to get it off chest and if any of it helps anyone then I'm happy with that too! For anyone it has sent to Zzzzzzzz sorry!!

Cuckoo - I think I know why I am weird with lots of things but it doesn't always make it easy to not let it get to me. I don't actually know if I am right or have just matched an experience with a consequence if you see what I mean.

I don't tend to talk about being depressed other than to say I was ill after I had my children or I am weird as I have had people never say another word to me after I have been honest about how I really felt that time they asked me.

Alcohol is never good for me as it can send me in a downward spiral and I haven't had any for ages as it isn't worth the calories.

I let things get to me. I cope with huge stuff and the small stuff tip me over the edge but atm there is just so many different things to deal with and we never seem to get a chance to just be and not to worry. Ds2 is finding it hard to settle in his new school and make friends and be accepted, his behaviour hasn't been so good and I just worry he can't sort himself out.

Hypnotherapy - is that the same as being hypnotised to forget things or feel differently about them? [being thick emoticon]