The 5:2 thread number 31 - Getting healthier one day at a time.

[BetsyBell]

The continuing thread for those of us following the 5:2 fast or other forms of fasting such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8.

The 5:2 diet was featured on Horizon in August 2012 and essentially requires you to fast for 2 non-consecutive days per week. The other 5 days, you can eat normally - or approximately your Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE - see explanation below). 4:3 is the same except you fast on 3 days in the week. Alternate-day fasting (ADF) is just how it sounds; you fast every other day. 16:8 is another form where you stick to only eating in an 8 hour window each day, therefore fasting for 16 hours each day.

By "fasting", we mean that we keep our calorie consumption very low, around 500 calories on average for a woman, 600 for a man, on those days.

You'll find on these threads we use a number of acronyms. If you're new to the threads, or Mumsnet in general, they might not make much sense.

WOE/WOL = Way Of Eating/Way Of Life. We use this term instead of "diet" as many of us see this as something to do in the long term.

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a website or app many use for keeping track of the number of calories they're eating.

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, quantifies the number of calories you burn in a day. This measure is best estimated by scaling your Basal Metabolic Rate to your level of activity. TDEE is critical in tailoring your nutrition plan to desired fitness goals. Here is a link to a calculator to help you figure out how many calories you should be eating in a day.

NFD = Non fast day

NSV = Non scale victory

Michael Mosley has a website to accompany his book on the subject. Please go check it out, as he's the whole reason most of us are here!

Lurkers and new starters: please just jump in and post - you'll find a lot of support here and we’re a friendly bunch.

Here is a list of links to get you started with this way of eating. Please let us know if you find a new article or some other information online:

All our previous threads can be found by browsing through the fasting section of the site.

Another thread which breadandwine has started is a good resource for some of the tips and links that get lost in these big threads. In addition to sharing links, we try to condense some of our top tips for fasting there. Keep in mind, we all do this differently, so these are just tips, not rules. This might be a good place to catch up with us if you're feeling a bit lost!

eatriskier’s thread has some lovely inspiring stories which are worth checking out if you want some motivation to get started or keep going through a plateau. Please add your own too.

frenchfancy has a recipe thread over here, please post any low-calorie recipes there so they don't get lost in these bigger threads!

If you've been at this a while and are moving on to maintaining your goal weight, there is a thread here to discuss that.

Here is the link to the BBC article regarding Michael Mosley's findings, which was featured on Horizon.

There's a link to the aforementioned Horizon programme here.

A blog post here gives some of the scientific explanation for why this way of eating helps you to not only lose weight, but improve your all-around health.

This link nicely demonstrates that there are many body ‘right’ body shapes and types, because what we are actually aiming for is low body fat for fitness and health.

A Telegraph article which comments on the diet and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley himself, very informative if you're just starting. (I highly recommend this for an overview)

A study discussed here gives commentary specifically addressing the effect of this diet on obese people (both men and women), with regard to both health and weight loss. ("After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4 cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant.) it also mentions "Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%).")

Something to consider if you are currently your ideal BMI: this appears to suggest the benefits for women at a lower BMI might not be seeing the same health benefits that are found on men at their ideal BMI.

A BIG THANK YOU to all who have been contributing. Most of us are learning this way of eating as we go along. All of the links above have been posted by others in our previous threads, and they've been very helpful.

A HUGE THANK YOU to Greeneggsandnicht for putting together all this info and resources into one concise OP text, much appreciated by so many 5:2ers!

Come join us, and tell us about your experiences with this diet!

Rubbish Sit-ups are yummy. I do loads of front & side variations holding barbells - but we're all different.

Everyone would enjoy this one though (with a nice bloke for partner):

-sit on a mat facing each other, legs apart
-wrap your legs around his legs and keep them there

• pass him a heavy medicine ball, then lean back and lower your shoulders to the ground, keeping arms outstretched
• sit up again, keeping arms stretched and take the ball from him
• lower yourself back to the floor again, keeping arms stretched
• touch the ball to the floor behind your head, arms stretched
• sit up again and pass him the ball

Tips:

• do very fast reps for a minute, rinse and repeat twice
• keep arms stretched and abs braced all the time
• shave your legs beforehand !

EarSlaps You look lovely !
Yes this is a really feisty image

Well, I needed a new name to go with my new 5:2 and Jillian honed body .

I'm waiting for the Bosch person to repair my Fridge-Freezer for the 3rd time in a month

Well, at least the rattles started a week before the guarantee expired.

Before 5:2, I would have emptied the ice cream shelf while waiting for him. I'm just drinking espresso and cocoa instead

Morning all FD today. angie yes IMHO breaks are ok. You worry it will be too hard to fast again but in fact it gets easier. I have a theory that I can't explain very well, but there is a complex interaction between your metabolism, what you've eaten recently and what you are eating right now. Excersise for those who exercise is another factor.

I think that just around the time your metabolism is about to move to a new, lower set point fasting gets very hard, esp if you have been strict. Your bod does not want to let you get thinner.

You have to let go a bit and feast to get through it.

But there are other kinds of stalls where it's because you overdo it on nfds. Then you have to eat less not more.

You sound like you are scraping low metabolically (that's a proper scientific phrase you know) and need a bit of feasting.

Sorry, MrsF I had intended to come straight back after my last post and thank you for the bun recipe - but something distracted me.

Thanks for that - it's a bit like my Chelsea bun recipe. Personally, if I'm using yeast, I'll go for bread flour rather than plain, as you should get a better rise with the increase in gluten.

Interesting the recipe calls for cardamon - I'll have to try that!

But all that butter/eggs/milk! [gives vegan shudder!]

Morning all .

I fasted on Monday and have decided to fast tomorrow as doing Mon and Wed wasn't working for me in my quest to lose weight. I was 11 stone 5 this morning so happy with that as down slightly.

Today I have made raspberry muffins and prepared the dough for Chelsea buns. Feeling a bit stressed. Due a phone call to arrange an appointment with the police [scared] and also have realised I have been blocked from someone I really wanted to read my message on FB and it is upsetting as they were a really important person to me but we just can't do the friends thing. Really don't want to use it as an excuse to stuff face and don't feel hungry anyway so won't. Breakfast was a tomato and herb bagel toasted (224 cals) with small spreading of Lurpak and just had a muffin to try.

Need to do errands in the village but it is freezing so will do on way to school.

DS1 got detention for trouble at school but I did make sure the instigator is also getting consequences as it has to be fair.

Plan to tidy kitchen and lounge later and putting it here so I don't forget.

Good luck to all fasters!

Oh Toffee You have a lot to cope with. I hope you can quickly resolve your problems, especially re police.

BreadandWine Do you have a vegan version of cinammon buns ? WIth my butter / marge allergy, I find vegan recipes very useful for baking, (even though I'll eat anything that can't outrun me).
When I substitute cream cheese & oil for butter, it normally takes me several attempts with different ratios, before I obtain something edible.

I'm going to try your vegan choc cake in a cup, ideal for the lazy chocaholic.

Thanks BCF. I nearly cried then at your kindness. I probably should but hate crying.

It is cold again today. I never used to mind the winter but I am really not liking it at the moment.

Morning!

EarSlaps You look gorge in that name and your bum definitely does not look big in it!

Fd here today. Second of the week. Am def finding it harder in this weather. It is burrrrrloody freezing!!!!!!!

......but..... I am really trying to stick to no snacking as am at awful stage of cycle when I start to bloat like mad. That and fact that it is illegal OBVS!

So easiest way is to stick to 16:8, as that keeps flood gates well and truly closed. Ironically I used to naturally live a 16:8 lifestyle in my size 8/ 8st 3lb early/mid twenties. Never been a breakfast person - apart from weekends and hols for the full (insert nationality) breakfast! And was rarely bothered by lunch. Used to stop eating dinner when full!! Imagine that! Yet I have always always loved my food, so wasn't lack of interest. Just lack of desire to eat when not hungry.

Yet further proof that my overeating habits have been as a result of comfort/loneliness/boredom/emotions/stress, since the proverbial shite hit the fan and I lost control of my ... er.. control on life.

Just find it funny that what I am working so hard to achieve and maintain in terms of habits now, is what I used to do naturally!

BigChoc I think I actually wet myself a bit just imagining doing that leg wrapped round, ball in air sit up! But once again - you are hardcore!!!

Am I the only one on here who struggles with bladder control too?? Does the cold weather make anyone else need to run to loo every five mins?

Am starting to wonder if I really do need some kind of vaginal/pelvic/bladder reconstruction!
Please come forward and reassure me ladies, of your 'tena moments' and/or how you continually combat them ie steps to avoid/prevent.

.... or I will seriously start considering own name change to SlackAlice!!

Am also drooling over cinnamon buns (slobber). Have been looking for a nice Chrimbo Brekkie idea to nibble with coffee while watching dd open presents!

Oh and Toffee X X X X (((((( )))))). Be so proud of yourself for every day that you don't allow yourself to just give up. It's a real achievement to combat eating issues, or to manage depression. You are doing both!! Give yourself little pats on back every day for all you are accomplishing

Hello all, long time lurker here. I have been dabbling in 5:2 and really see the effectiveness of the fasts. What I struggle with is the day after, I feel out of control, it's like I'm honour bound to eat everything I see/ can imagine. I'm hoping it's novelty of 'allowing' overeating without guilt and will wear off.

I have a (long past) history with ED and haven't been able to "diet" without unleashing the crazy since. I only have about 10 kilos to shed and really feel like if I could do this without getting gripped with ED circular thinking and behaviours, I'd have finally laid those demons to rest.

My pattern is extreme - so extreme undereating/ exercise. I just get caught up with a belief if I get my eating perfect, my life will be perfect, and have a tendency to binge when it goes wrong because I'm swearing basically never to eat again after the binge.

Obviously, I'm a bit worried by the feeling of being out of control after fast days, but am trying to weather the storm and let the novelty/feeling pass. I don't mind not losing while I experiment with restriction and unconstrained eating. But what I don't think I can handle is slipping into obsession again - the endless, exhausting calorie maths, endless unrealistic plans to run a million miles a week, the feeling the whole time of monitoring, controlling, planning. I just want to be normal.

The reason I'm a bit overweight is because I daren' t restrict after a bit of a blowout, or say no if I fancy something, because that first little restriction was the start of a slippery spiral into obsession in my 20s. But I'm not in my 20s and really want to feel, well, not in control so much as not a minor diet away from oblivion. Has anyone here had similar concerns when starting out? I'd love to hear about people feeling less obsessed by diet/ food/ exercise because of this WOL.

I don't want to be controversial but I don't actually fancy the cinnamon buns. If someone gave them to me on an NFD I would not kick them out of bed but it sounds like a lot of hard work!

Maybe because I've got a 7mo baby and I know I can't!

But while we are on the subject of baking, I DID bake a cake with soya flour (50:50 w ground almonds) and it tasted great.

Low carb sweet treats and baking are really working for me right now.

Hands up, me too Cuckoo. All I seem to do is wee. I know I am trying to drink more but I am sure it isn't enough and not so much to match the loo trips. Thank you for your kind comments. I don't feel I am doing well, I feel I want to hide away and not talk to anyone but equally miss the old me who had loads of friends and was funny. Not the current one who is cold, teary, stressing and wondering when things will stop being so full on.

Going to do the Chelsea buns now.

Hi Sparklyboots! If I remember rightly, the book does caution against anyone with a tendency or history of ED trying this approach - as you say, it's very hard not to slip into old bad habits.

How long have you been dabbling?

Hi Sparkly. Everything I've read about intermittent fasting cautions against anyone with an ED from doing it. Have you received professional support?

My appetite naturally adjusted and shrunk after 5 or 6 months of doing 5:2, so much so that it's now physically impossible for me to overeat too much on NFDs (my stomach actually hurts). But many other longterm 5:2ers have not experienced this appetite reduction. So you need to be ultra careful...

SparkyBoots (((((((Hello))))))))

Sounds like you know yourself well which is a good start. The key for you now obviously is to work with those traits you have, and not to live in denial about your abilities to overcome them in a walk before you can run kind of manner.

To me, reading your post carefully, it is screamingly obvious what you need to do. If I have missed something or this sounds too 'stating the obvious' please tell me and I will readdress!!!!!

But sometimes it is as simple as an outsider having a fresh pair of eyes on subject and telling you something you may already know, but somehow sinks in more when somebody else says it!

Given your control issues and trying to take a positive spin on them I would use your 'extremeness' in this instance to stick to the rules.

On your non fast days it is important to remember that it is NOT permission to feast/binge/overeat but it IS time to re educate yourself on what is 'normal'.

So...

Stick to your fd as you are.

But, for nfd, go on mfp or similar, find your tdee and make sure you use that extremeness to stick to it.

A general rule of thumb here is to try to balance calories across a week etc to allow for those days when one tends to feel less hungry, or indeed more hungry. A lot of us like to overindulge at weekends by eating those foods higher in cals, or slightly bigger portions, but we will try to balance this out by being better behaved during rest of week.

I know that for some people their tdee might be more than they fancy eating sometimes. Or that, through increased activity they may want to eat more.

But given your concerns of spiralling bad habits. I would consider sticking to a very simple life to begin with.

Do 2 fd a week. Max 500 cals.

Find your tdee and make sure you stick to it rest of days.

If you feel like eating more, then tell yourself, one of two things must happen...

You either increase your exercise to counter it.

or

You reduce your cals across either that week or fortnight by the difference to counter it. But no more than that!

If rules are your thing. Then work with it, but make sure those rules are healthy and honest! Run them by us on here if you want second opinions.

Good luck with it all, truly, and well done for trying to beat the demons!

Just to add...

I haven't read the book, so I wasn't aware of advice given regarding eating disorders. Apologies for not pointing that out!

But, I would say that I imagine for anyone with an eating disorder, if it was simply a case of being told "No, you shouldn't do this", and them saying "Oh, ok, best not then", there would be no such thing in first place.

I feel that generally people will do what they want to do. Especially with control disorders. All we can keep reiterating is modertation/common sense/balance. To say an outright NO or Yes to anything is to live in the kind of extremes that can cause disorders in first place. IMHO.

If you're going to do something regardless, then perhaps better to work with what you've got, than to ignore the issue full stop. Avoiding 5:2 may keep one from dangerous territory here, but where does it send one to instead??? Eating disorder issues are still there?....

Might be a case of book arse covering as is the norm.

These are my opinions, not there to offend anybody. Am always happy to debate a subject. But I am obviously not/nor believe I am the gospel on anything!

Except....

CLENCH

and...

DRINK WATER

Thanks all :) I really do need to be careful - the dabbling has been really because I've backed off any time I've noticed myself becoming a bit over-wraught.

Rules really WERE my thing but I am a bit hesitant about inviting that particular trait into my diet because it's the extreme rule abiding that did for me last time. It's precisely rigidity and lack of flexibility that is my downfall. So in my experimental.fasts, I've been not counting cals or using MFP, but they've been going well as I've managed to eat a small meal but really noticed the difference to my silhouette, so must be within cals...

I have had professional support and am 4yrs post therapy sign off with no relapse and continued improvement in my relationships, so I feel pretty strong. I also had a daughter this year, she's my number one motivation, I want to drop this last bit of anxiety and overeating so she can have a healthy and relaxed role model. I'm pleased with the fact that fasts are non-addictive for me, this is a massive change. In the past, feeling hungry would kick start the whole cycle, because I used to love the light-headed but in control thing...

Really pausing for thought about it, given the advice. But would love to get over my food fears, once and for all.

Police cross posted Cuckoo that really made sense, esp that I'm avoiding this because of past ED... thereby keeping it alive... hmm, need to sleep on it, I reckon. Really, really value the input though, checking my thinking has been a huge part of my recovery in all areas, thanks

Umm, OOPS and not "police" ... effing kindle

Wrigglebum/earslaps!! Excellent!! Superb rename.

Breadandwine. Yes you can. I find that plain flour makes it more "cakey" though and less like bread. I've also tried 00 flour which works well. If you read any cinnamon rolls off a Danish website most of them will use "farin" which essentially means 00 flour. I just didn't suggest it as its not always available.

My third attempt at a FD this week . Last night after having crowed on here that at least I was well under TDEE, I decided to have a couple of biscuits (German ginger bread kind) and mulled wine. Well it all went badly wrong. Two glasses of mulled wine (circa 500 cals) and another 500 of biscuits so about 600 over TDEE in the end.

So I am attempting to fast whilst slightly hungover.

So far some home made chicken soup 150 cals. But am hungry.

Good luck to the fasters today.

Hey Toffee .... that you, is still in there. She is just buried by layers of crap at the moment. You will find yourself out of this emotional hole you are in now, you just need to hang on in there.

Also, know that you are not the only one!! I know for me, feeling like the rest of the world has got it's shit together and I seem to be the only twat who can't cope, just makes me feel more shite. Knowing others struggle too, is reassuring as it takes the pressure off to be perfect. Or to cope with life better. As queen of cliches, I'll roll out another.... Just take it one day at a time.

I have been to some very dark places over the years. I am currently going through a wobbly patch, though totm looming and bloody doc suggesting I am depressed now making me feel more blue!! But, I am still amazed at how far I have come. In the grand scheme of things I am a lot better than the black hell I was in. I can see glimpses of the old me, and the more I do, the more it increases my desire to fight for life. So I can vouch for the fact that the 'old' you is still in there, she just needs to fight her way to surface. If anything, she will come back stronger than ever.

For me, I think depression is something we don't cure and it goes away forever. It is something we have to manage on a continual basis. It seems to come in cycles. Some episodes bigger than others. Some affected by what is going on our lives, health, diet, exercise etc.

You obviously have a lot on your plate at the moment and this is having a knock on effect. But you are still you, funny with lots of friends. You are just very stressed right now.

Our very lovely, very funny, very sweet, getting very very sexy, slim and svelte, but very stressed, very under pressure and very sad atm Toffee.

So chin up Toffs, big hug and back rub, you will be fine and we all love you lots!!!! XXX

A question about TDEE: I want to work out my calories for non fast days, but a bit unsure as to whether to class my lifestyle as sedentary or light exercise. I don't work out or anything, but I also don't drive so walk up and down to school twice a day every day as well as to my Mam's twice a week there and back and bus stops/stations to go shopping etc, so should I work on me as being light activity?
Sedentary :
Little or no exercise. This level would be someone who does not make an effort to incorporate exercise into their daily life (eg drives to work, sits at a desk, drives home and watches TV).
Lightly active :
Light exercise or sports 1-3 days per week. This level would include people who incorporate walking and activity into their day to day activities but do not have an exercise regime at such or exercise or play sports fewer than three times a week.

ArtDeco, is there going to be a huge difference between the 2 calculations? How rigidly do you plan on sticking to the figure it gives you?