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Extra-curricular activities

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Grade 1 Violin failure

245 replies

Honeymum · 04/04/2011 18:41

I've just had a text from my DD's violin teacher to say she's failed grade 1.

She has been with him for almost 2 years and has practiced regularly, particularly since we've been preparing for the exam (since last September). To my untrained ear the pieces sounded fine. After the exam the teacher (who accompanied her on the piano) said she had done well and he was pleased.

The scales and sight reading are done with the examiner only so he didn't hear these.

By text he said she talked through the pieces but I will get full story tomorrow.

I wanted to know how common it is to fail grade 1? Is it DD or the teacher? Should I try to switch?

Thanks

OP posts:
LilyBolero · 06/04/2011 21:29

The Associated Board examine in about 90 countries worldwide - it's not just a UK thing to do exams.

LilyBolero · 06/04/2011 21:30

(Sorry Tangle, that was in response to an earlier comment, not in response to your post which I totally agree with!!!)

I think the sightreading comes from ensemble playing from an early age - whether recorder groups, orchestras, or even piano duets. It all helps to get that pulse established!

ShellingPeas · 06/04/2011 21:46

Regardless of whether or not a pupil was sitting an exam a good teacher should have them practising scales and technical exercises relevant to the pieces they were working on.

I've been playing various instruments for around 35 years and teaching for the last 20 years and even now I still start every practise session with 10-15 minutes of scales and technical exercises. I do the same with my students. You select scales relevant to the pieces they're working on.

And sightreading is an essential part of playing. Anyone preparing a child for an exam who doesn't get the child to sightread on a regular basis really shouldn't be entering them for an exam. It's bloody terrifying to sit in front of someone on a one to one basis and have to play something you've never seen before.

bilblio · 06/04/2011 21:48

When I learnt to play violin there were 7 of us had lessons together. 5 took their exams at Christmas, all passed with Merits & Distinctions. Myself and my friend were away for that lot of exams so we took ours the following Easter, we had a different examiner.
I passed by 2 points. My friend passed by 3! So it varies hugely on the examiner too.

I had a fantastic teacher, he was head of music services in the city I lived in and he was really anti-exams, so he was more than happy for me to never do another exam again :) ... I had 11 years of lessons and never got any further than grade 1.
But there was a fantastic orchestra scheme where I grew up though, you could join when you were at grade 1 level and every year you auditioned to go up to the next orchestra. He encouraged me to join that and it was the best thing I did.
I did feel a bit daft every year when I auditioned and said I was grade 1 :) But it was the audition that counted. (I hated the auditions too but at least they had a purpose.)

Encourage your daughter to play because she loves it, getting her in an orchestra will be fantastic at teaching her to keep playing.... even if she messes up, and she'll have to learn to find where she is when she's lost which will help with her sight reading too.
Plus it'll be fun and she'll make friends.

Exams put a lot of pressure on, and a lot of the time it's really unnecessary unless you want to be a classical musician or study it at uni.
Music should be fun!

One of the best musicians I know is my DH. He's amazing! He can pick up any instrument and get a good tune out of it, play along with anyone and anything... he's never had a proper music lesson in his live and can't read a note of music.

The only music qualification he has is a GCSE in music, he got a B... because he couldn't read the notes on the sight reading test. He got the rhythm spot on though

Honeymum · 06/04/2011 22:35

Oh boy, so many comments!!

I have been out this evening. DD was in a musical at school (she loved every minute - it was such a joy to see her up on the stage) so if you don't mind I will add my tuppence worth tomorrow when I'm a bit more awake!

Thank you - very interesting thread and I hope useful for others starting out with music lessons.

OP posts:
seeker · 07/04/2011 09:58

I'm finding this very interesting. My dd admits now, at 15, that she's really glad that she knows her scales and so on - she loves improvising and jazz. But if she hadn't done music exams there is no way she would have learnt them. He teacher had a very laid back approach to exams, but they were always there in the background - and that kept the scales and the sight playing ticking along while the fun stuff was going on in front.

also, sad though it is to say it, bits of paper are important to kids nowadays. I deliberately sent my dd to a dance school where they didn't do exams - and now she's in a position of having done 10 years of ballet and not a certificate to put on her CV!

singersgirl · 07/04/2011 12:09

One thing that really helped DS2 with his sightreading was a downloadable computer quiz from Wieser called Sightreading Challenge; it's on the homepage here: www.wieser-software.com/. It's very cheap and you can set it to different instruments so you get the right clef and range, and they just try to beat their score by reading the notes as quickly as possible. Very simple but surprisingly effective for speedy note recognition.

confidence · 08/04/2011 00:03

Hmm, I think there are a number of factors here. I'm a music teacher with some contact with the ABRSM BTW.

It sounds to me like the fundamental problem is that your violin teacher is just not steeped in the culture of exams. If he was going to enter her for the exam, he should have known the general standard required, and known of the normal problems kids' face doing their first exam, such as panicking about sight reading. All of that should have been taken into account. She should have practised with him attempting the sight reading NO MATTER how bad the attempt. As has been said earlier a minimum of 1/3 marks is given for any attempt.

The fact that he "forgot to enter her" the first time chimes with this. It doesn't sound like he's the kind of teacher who's doing that all the time for lots of students. This doesn't mean he's a bad teacher of course - there are many different, valid ways of teaching. But he needs to know that failing an exam can be very distressing for a child, and if he's not up to overseeing it properly, he shouldn't be entering people.

It's rare to fail grade 1, and FWIW I have heard ABRSM examiners say that when it happens, they consider it purely as an indictment on the teacher, not the student.

There's also another issue, which is the huge difference between the many ways that "musicality" can be expressed in a free and creative fashion, and the incredibly tight-arsed structure and culture of ABRSM exams. There is an enormous gap between a student being able to "do something" in the sense of getting their instrument out when they're ready, having a chat, warming up, playing a bit, eventually finding their way and doing something quite engaging and creative; and going into a 12-minute exam and being told "you have these notes and only these notes on the page, you have one chance to play them: start NOW!" I know I have been guilty of underestimating that gap before, I think it's very easy to do because you get caught up in the pleasure of hearing creative kids do interesting things.

It's terribly important to remember that an exam's validity is only in relation to the parameters it set up for itself in the first place. A "music exam" is a test of SOME musical activities, VERY strictly defined and examined at one time. It's not, in any way at all, a test of "musicality". You can be naturally far worse at something than someone else but if you're put in a competition against them for which you know the rules you are being judged by and they don't, you will win.

I have sympathies with both sides of the pro/con exams debate. I certainly think there are a lot of children who are not suited to them; a lot of young children are forced to take them too early; and parents often make the mistake of attaching wider importance to them then is really merited.

Having said that, the violin is a very classical, reading-based instrument. If she enjoys it and is likely to want to take it further, then that's probably going to happen by reading music in an orchestra, not by jamming in a rock band. There's a case for pushing a structured exam-based approach more than one might on some other instruments.

I think I might look for another violin teacher, while simultaneously investigating other, less formal kinds of musical experience. Get a guitar and learn some chords; join an African drumming group; that kind of thing. If she's going to do the classical violin she needs to do it properly; but she may be more tempermentally suited to doing something else.

Honeymum · 11/04/2011 19:06

Sorry for taking so long - rl has been a bit busy over the beautiful weekend. Thank you for some much brilliant advice and for the last words from confidence - really useful stuff. I am going to digest it and see how we get on over the next few weeks. DD is quite upset about the whole thing so it will be interesting to see how she copes. I take on board everything you've said about the teacher, and will see if we can find some opportunities for DD to play outside her lessons. She is a child who wants to try everything and I think now is the time for her to really focus on what she wants to stick with.

Thanks again and I'll be back in the next few weeks to let you know how we get on!!

OP posts:
Honeymum · 29/05/2011 18:15

Quick update - DD is entered for her grade 1 again at end of June (not got date yet) and her pieces and scales etc are sounding much better. We've been working on sight reading too which is coming along. Fingers crossed for a better result.

Oh and she's joined Music School, 2 hours on Saturday morning, of playing with other kids in an orchestra. She's enjoying that so far and hopefully it will help.

Back after the exam with an update! Smile

OP posts:
Dunlurking · 30/05/2011 09:41

Good luck to your dd for the exam Honeymum.

I followed this thread while I was still lurking and found it very helpful when my dd got a pass for her grade 2 violin, and had been predicted a distinction (which she got for grade 1). Not quite the same situation but all the information posters had passed on stopped me interogating quizzing her teacher and helped me come up with the best things to say to my dd. Like you we are working on scales and sight reading and have found a summer school and a possible strings group to join as well.

Do post how she gets on.

goldtinsel · 30/05/2011 19:54

Hope all goes well with the exam!

If you want a (free!) advice lesson over Skype do send me a message. I enter loads of Grade 1s each year :)

ZZZenAgain · 31/05/2011 05:22

hope it goes well for her. I am glad she is enjoying orchestra.

maggiethecat · 02/06/2011 23:22

You've got a good attitude Honeymum. Hope it all goes well.

thumbwitch · 02/06/2011 23:38

I don't know how much this will help because my experience was different but anyway:
I failed Grade 1 piano.
I got 96, so only just - and the reason was because I was started too early on the exam pieces, so by the time the exam came, I knew them all by heart - except that with the nervousness induced by the exam, I forgot them and then couldn't find my place on the page to play it properly.

I changed teacher - the next one was far better for me, not as old-fashioned or strict and more fun - and passed Grade 1 no problem next time. But because of the nerves, I only did Grades 1, 2, 4 and 6 (after taking Grade 5 theory) as it seemed pointless putting me through every grade exam. I only did Grades 3 and 6 in Double Bass as well, for the same reason (passed both despite getting shocking disco knee!)

Just as a thought - does she sing? Singing can help a lot in terms of better sight reading, sight singing, picking out notes from chords, that kind of thing - can she join a choir as well?

wellwisher · 02/06/2011 23:48

It sounds like the teacher is definitely not up to scratch - he should be teaching exam technique and behaviour. Stopping, let alone speaking, when you make a mistake in a piece is a huge no-no. For children who haven't taken an exam before, I'd go as far as to use one lesson as a "dress rehearsal" where the teacher pretends to be the examiner, so that they can identify any issues and the child knows what to expect on the day.

That said, I thought it was interesting that you say the teacher is "not strict enough" with your DD, while admitting that you only make her practise "10-15 mins a day, 5 days a week" - that's nowhere near enough, especially in the run-up to an exam, so I think you've let her down a bit as well. You don't need to be a tiger mother about it, but 30 minutes a day, every single day, should be doable for a 9-year-old.

maggiethecat · 03/06/2011 15:38

Wellwisher I think you are being harsh. Practice time will vary according to the child and in some cases less is more. In fact, in the run up to exam I will probably give my dd a break from her pieces occasionally so that she does not get sick of hearing them but of course this will depend on the individual.

It sounds more like Honeymum's dd was let down by poor exam technigue.

ImNotaCelebrity · 03/06/2011 22:28

I agree. 30 mins every day is unrealistic. At grade 1 standard, 10-15 mins, 5 times a week is more than enough. If it takes 30 mins every day, they're not up to scratch!

wellwisher · 04/06/2011 01:12

Total rubbish, ImNotACeleb! I started piano at 6 and violin at 7, had to practise each for 30 minutes a day, and the only uncertainty over all my grade exams was whether I would pass with merit or distinction! It's appalling to say that having to practise for more than 10 minutes a day means you're not up to scratch - studying an instrument is a great way for children to learn that success takes work and you get out what you put in. God help your dcs if you're teaching them that everything should be easy.

So I stand by what I said, and I also think that if the OP didn't see this coming, the parents are not close enough to the violin learning - it isn't an easy instrument and almost all preteen kids need support at home from someone who knows the difference between good and bad playing. You wouldn't expect a child to succeed in learning Arabic or tennis with 1 hour of teaching a week and nobody at home helping - why do people think music is any different?

thumbwitch · 04/06/2011 01:22

maggie I think you are wise - my biggest problem was overfamiliarity with my pieces, from having started them 9 months before the exam. Ridiculously far too long, IMO.

wellwisher · 04/06/2011 01:41

I'm not saying practise only the exam pieces for 30 minutes x 7 days - you should mix things up with scales, sight reading, improvisation, revisiting old pieces, a bit of singing/conducting... it's OK for it to be fun!

quirrelquarrel · 09/06/2011 10:57

Would be rather wary of the teacher taking her through the grades- sounds very unprofessional- and wouldn't be happy anyway because a good grounding in music is v. important. If he has lots of other good qualities (i.e. charismatic teacher, good at engaging her- although obvs. not if she's not concentrating well), then have another go of it. But I'd switch and make a clean break of it.

Good teachers go above and beyond and don't make a fuss about it. They might type up a checklist for practise i.e. all the scales, all the pieces, what the aural entails so the pupil knows exactly what they have to do. They go to seminars (if they're doing ABRSM) and refer to the syllabus regularly. They care about how much you practise at home and recognise the need for structure, especially with beginners. Don't be afraid to ask for a consultation/"probation" lesson which you can sit in on, ask for phone numbers of current pupils, really quiz them. If they're keepers, they'll be glad to tell you about them. It's not a cheap investment and it's best to have one teacher to grow a relationship with, so they've got to be worth it.

To push her confidence up, you could offer her Grade 1 on keyboard. It's not humiliating like a retake (although a retake isn't humiliating, failure is a part of life etc etc and if you're talented at music, it doesn't matter if you get average/below average) because it's on a different instrument, it's slightly easier and she'll know most of it. Chords are fun and useful when it comes to arpeggios later on and she might be attracted to the idea of all the different voice/electronica/rhythms etc. When she gets a good mark on that, she can move on to Grade 2 piano. Trinity Guildhall do keyboard exams.

10-15 minutes a day is good and regular, but you might want to consider making it a little longer. With scales, you just need to slog at them. Learn the first scale and the second, repeat, learn the third scale, repeat them all, then the fourth, repeat them all etc. To get stuck in takes more than 10 mins.

I haven't an ounce of musicality in me, but I somehow I manage to pass exams- mostly merits, but my Grade 5 theory was one mark above the pass cutoff :o v. lucky, I was getting 4/5 marks below in all the practise tests! I only did it so I could take G6, but I wish I'd done it sooner, as soon as I'd started playing. Lots of teachers in France insist on a year of pure theory for all prospective pupils, to test their enthusiasm and to give them a good grounding in music.
My first teacher tried to make everything fun, so neglected theory pretty much completely and gave me the books with the letter names printed next to the notes. When my dad found out he was shocked and switched me to a very theory full-on teacher, who couldn't believe I didn't know what a crotchet was after four years of playing and starting teaching me Grade 3 stuff...I still find it harder to read a bass clef now.

Anyway, do reassure your daughter, especially that it doesn't have to set a precedent.

quirrelquarrel · 09/06/2011 11:01

ImNotaCeleb- but music is one of the things that you don't need terrifying talent to work with! Living example right here :o Seriously, if everything isn't easy straight away, you shouldn't give anyone the opportunity to get up to scratch? Gosh. The aim of practising is to get up to scratch- 99% perspiration, 1% inspiration!!

ImNotaCelebrity · 12/06/2011 01:31

Sorry wellwisher and quirrel, we'll have to agree to disagree. (And how dare you say 'god help my dcs', wellwisher ... I haven't assumed anything about your parenting style, be polite enough not to make assumptions about mine.)

Young children of 6 and 7 don't have to be flogged to practice for 30 mins every day. I was a very lazy 'practiser', yet I have a music degree (1st instrument violin) and played professionally and taught violin and piano for a few years (many moons ago - am now a primary teacher).

Children who enjoy practising for 30 mins daily would be the ideal - of course they would - but it's not the norm at this age or standard and it's not generally necessary for beginners. If the children really did practice properly for 15 mins 5 times a week, with someone at home taking an interest and checking their practice notebooks, most of them would be absolutely fine. All the instrumental teachers I know (and there are many) tell their pupils to start off with 10-15 mins as often as they can manage. As time goes on, this can be increased. Lots of children will eventually find themselves doing half an hour without even realising. And quirrel - for young children, 10-15 mins often is 99% persperation.

DS is year 2, has grade 1 distinction and is doing grade 2 in a couple of weeks. He also plays piano at grade 1 standard. The amount of practice he does depends on his mood ... and he always has at least 1 day off during the week and 1 at the weekend. We don't have a practice timetable - I'm not anal enough for that, and it would be impossible to stick to, particularly on my working days when we get home late. Some days he just practices scales (takes 5 mins to run through them) or just plays his pieces (takes no more than 10 mins) or has a go at some new pieces for sight reading practice. Other days he's really keen and wants to keep going for ages on whatever happens to have taken his fancy! If I forced him to do 30 mins every day, chances are he'd have given up by now. Yes, he has to practise - he knows that is expected. Yes, he has to have more days practising than days off. And he knows that if he goes through a holiday without practising, it's bloody hard work when you pick it up again. (He hasn't made that mistake since!) He has a certain amount of natural ability, but he knows he has to put in the work too. He also knows he is entitled to a couple of days off.

I think that, unless you have the luxury of being a SAHM with the time to sit down and supervise practice at the end of each school day, this is the reality for many families ... you muddle through, fitting in as much as you can, feeling guilty when you don't. The last thing you need is someone telling you you've let your child down by not insisting they do more. Your comments to the OP, wellwisher, were very harsh and unfair, in my opinion. Sorry.

maggiethecat · 12/06/2011 06:56

ImNotaCelebrity, I agree that Wellwisher's comments are harsh especially since the OP sounds like she is a supportive albeit musically untrained mum. Also, I think an enforced 30 min daily practice routine might turn some young children off.

I disagree with your comment though about a child not being up to scratch if a 30 min routine is required. A generalisation such as that is not helpful as depending on any number of factors a child may require more or less time and 30 mins, particularly for a 9 year old (age of OP's dd) cannot be considered excessive.