Grade 1 Violin failure

[Honeymum]

I've just had a text from my DD's violin teacher to say she's failed grade 1.

She has been with him for almost 2 years and has practiced regularly, particularly since we've been preparing for the exam (since last September). To my untrained ear the pieces sounded fine. After the exam the teacher (who accompanied her on the piano) said she had done well and he was pleased.

The scales and sight reading are done with the examiner only so he didn't hear these.

By text he said she talked through the pieces but I will get full story tomorrow.

I wanted to know how common it is to fail grade 1? Is it DD or the teacher? Should I try to switch?

Thanks

[confidence]

motherinferior - I certainly agree that exams don't really matter and people should be happy just to enjoy learning and not take them if that's what they want. However, IF a child sits one, it's surely important to pass it, simply because doing so fosters a sense of achievement and confidence, whereas failing it is dispiriting and demotivating.

Honeymum - it's interesting what you say about your two DCs. As a music teacher myself, I have always sat firmly on the nurture side of the nature/nurture debate, believing that anybody can be taught to play in tune and in time. It's a bit more difficult than that though since the groundwork for this is often laid not in the instrumental lessons when the child is 8, 9 or 10, but in informal, incidental music "learning" when they are 2 or 3.

As a parent, my experience is similar to yours. My oldest (11) has difficulty singing in tune and just doesn't seem very responsive to music. My youngest (5) has sung in tune since she was 3, danced since before she could walk and has the patience and concentration of an adult when exploring music.

It's great that your DC is so keen and wants to carry on. She may well just brush all this off and thrive. It seems extremely odd that she can play consistently out of tune and her teacher didn't seem to notice, and a better teacher may well be all that is required.

If tuning continues to be a problem, then maybe you could consider a woodwind instrument where the basis of it at least is digital rather than continuous. Or even (dare I say it) the drums!

[Dunlurking]

Good Luck with the new teacher next term Honeymum.

And the left handed thing is rubbish - my dd left handed as well and it has never been a problem for playing the violin. DD's teacher also said it can be an advantage.

Am inclined to agree that you need a good ear for playing the violin - and often singing in tune crucial. I too think a switch to a wind instrument might work as an alternative. If you want one that has more rarity value so she can get into music groups, how about the oboe? The reed sound/technique is difficult to start with, but a lot of the fingering is the same as the descant recorder - so you can pick out a tune fairly quickly if you already play a recorder.

[seeker]

I honestly don't see how this can be anything but the teacher's fault. It is hard for an even mildly motivated child to fail grade 1 at any instrument ( the exams and the marking are designed to help passes rather than fails) and to fail twice must be practically unheard of. So the teacher must be more than useless. Have you considered talking to the examining board about him? There must be some way of stopping him demoralising any more children.

[pinkytheshrinky]

I have to agree that I think you are flogging a dead horse. She as failed twice, if she cannot hear she is out of tune how on earth can another teacher teach that to her... I am sorry if i sound harsh but it just seems a horrible loop she is in. If the other people who trained with this teacher have passed then surely it cannot be the teacher?

Re. a second opinion... No one is going to say to you, sorry your DD cannot do this. You clearly have ambition for her (understandably) but honestly, why is it so important that she posses these exams? Without sounding too harsh if at her age now she has failed grade one twice then her future is not going to be a musical one so passing these grades seems a bit pointless. Sorry but forget the grades and just let her enjoy playing.

If the teacher is telling you he doesn't want to teach her (and the left handed thing is to make you feel a bit better) then you need to hear that. He is saying she cannot do it an you are wasting your money.

[roisin]

I think the most shocking thing is that the teacher was "very pleased with the pieces to the point where he was using phrases like 'text book'."

I wonder whether this teacher has much real experience or qualifications to teach? At my son's school students are not entered for exams unless they are expected to get at least a merit, and most do.

Through learning the violin she will have picked up lots of musicianship and also learned to read music. Maybe it's time for something else? I learned several different instruments as a child and always found the violin the most difficult. It just wasn't the right instrument for me, despite battling on with it for several years!

[hester]

Oh no, I was sure you were going to come back and report a happy outcome - your poor dd.

Obviously the teacher has to go. And I would consider letting your dd rest on it over the summer then discussing with her the options of giving exams a rest for a while, and/or trying another instrument.

I got to grade 8 in piano, was considered very musical and my teacher wanted me to go to music college, but I needed a second instrument. I tried everything - cello, french horn, organ, flute, even harpsichord - but actually none of them really worked for me (or me for them). In the end I did singing.

If your dd struggles a bit with tune and tends to bang everything out at the same pitch, she might do better on the piano - instantly tuneful and with pedals to help.

[hester]

And I agree with roisin - the violin is tough.

[ZZZenAgain]

I agree that being left-handed does not hamper violin learning (how could it since you use your left hand for fingering?). My dd is left-handed.

As to her not playing in tune, obviously this is a biggie and she cannot progress beyond even the first position realistically until she can more or less hear that she is getting that right. Can I ask you: do you tune her violin for her every day before she practises? she cannot play in tune on an out of tune violin. Get an electronic tuner. If she is tuning herself, she may not be tuning it right.

The piano thing is actually not a bad idea IMO. I am no musical expert but think about it - piano or keyboard - you hit the note and you are in tune. That would help her enormously with the violin, if she could do both. Naturally piano (or keyboard) is not at all easy , I doubt any instrument is when you want to excel at it but you do have the advantage of knowing when you hit the right key, you get the right note at that very basic level.

What I read out of those comments is: she is not listening to the notes she plays to hear if they are right, the rhythm is out but that will come with ensemble playing if you give it say a full year. The bow is too loud and harsh. This she can work on, at least she gets a sound out of it. I hear some children who get almost no sound at all out of the bow and I'm hard put to hear what on earth they are actually playing. She needs to press less, practise dynamics. So play say as loud as she can and then as quietly as she can whilst still getting the note. I don't know how you learn a beautiful intonation, I fear that may be one of those things you can or cannot do by nature but playing with a teacher who does have a beautiful intonation will be showing her where to go with it.

I would a) ask friends whose dc play in a way you personally like for teacher recommendations and do a few trial sessions; b) look at other instruments where getting the note by ear is not so essential in the beginning; c) if you continue with violin - and I think why not? - put her in a choir and make sure the instrument is always tuned properly

[Bumpsadaisie]

If your DD can't really sing along to Adele at age 9, then maybe she would be better with an instrument like piano to develop her sense of pitch? The violin is notoriously hard to start with as your first instrument - personally I think better to start with something like piano to develop your musicality and then turn to the violin after a couple of years.

I think some small part of being "musical" is inherent, but you can improve a lot by practice and exposure. Or both are related - my DD can sing nursery rhymes and simple songs almost perfectly in tune at 26 months - but then we are a musical family back through several generations (many of us have perfect pitch) and I spent most of her infancy singing at her to break the silence! So although DD is young she has already had a fair bit of exposure (poor kid - my voice is no great shakes!) I'm expecting DC2 soon and it will be interesting to see if s/he can do the same - probably not but will be able to do all sorts of things that DD can't do.

Do you think your DD knows she is out of tune but just can't practically get her fingers in the right place (I remember finding this really difficult - my teacher would exclaim "look you obvioulsy know you are out of tune, why can't you correct it!!") or do you think she doesn't yet have a good enough sense of pitch to know she is not playing in tune?

[pugsandseals]

Left-handed music teacher here!

1. Left-handedness I class as an unfair advantage on the violin
   
2. If you were to retake an exam, I would always recommend changing exam boards
   3)If you train a monkey to play 3 pieces for months they will never pass the sight-reading
   
3. It is perfectly ok for Grade 1 pupils to play out of tune on a violin & Trinity Guildhall would never fail a child on those grounds
   
   I have entered pupils for both exam boards this summer and the only fail I got was an associated board one. Other associated board pupils got a basic pass. My Trinity pupils got mainly merits & distinctions because they are examined by somebody that understands their instrument (unlike AB who could be anything from a trumpeter to a percussionist).
   
   Exams are not everything (I only did Grades 2, 5 & 8) but they should be a positive experience. It may just be me, but I find all my Trinity pupils come out smiling, whereas my AB pupils are less positive. If they can enjoy the exam process then they are much more likely to play at their best. I know which exam board I am going to recommend to my pupils in future!

[pugsandseals]

There is no reason to change her instrument in my opinion. The violin is a grossly misunderstood instrument which AB are doing little to help.

[ZZZenAgain]

why is the violin grossly misunderstood?

[seeker]

I think Grade 1 is being misunderstood too. It really isn't hard to pass regardless of instrument if the child is at all engaged. Which is why it's obviously the teacher's fault in this case. And Something Should be Done about him.

[ZZZenAgain]

I think that honey's dd is still very young and she still enjoys her instrument. Another teacher can IMO teach her to play in tune but I would assume this means back-pedalling a bit and going back in some way to the basics. She will not be tearing ahead with the new teacher from exam to exam. It doesn't mean going back to page 1 of a beginner's book but maybe she needs a good year without exams working on pieces at her level but learning to play correctly and with expression etc. Not necessarily IMO (and I repeat I don't play anything so judge me accordingly) playing 3 pieces over and over to death. Lots of new pieces perhaps.

After a year, maybe look at exams again and yes, why not try the Trinity ones then? However on no account would I enter her a third time unless the teacher tells me she is ready. In this case ,remember, first time round the teacher said she was not ready for it and the exam went ahead really without him wanting her to do it at that stage. perhaps too the lapse of time between attempt 1 and attempt 2 was insufficient, not that the preparation was so much at fault but it needed more time?

[pugsandseals]

Zzzen I just mean that progress is very different on a stringed instrument than a wind or brass. Other instruments can expect to pass Grade 1 in 1 year, Grade 2 in 2. Violin takes much longer than this to get going (upto Grade 2 taking upwards of 4 years on average) but students then tend to jump towards Grade 5 much quicker than other instruments. Sight reading is more complicated too as 4 notes can have the same fingering. I am not making excuses for any teacher, but the most common complaint about learning the violin is how long it takes pupils to get to Grade 1/2 standard. This is why the Initial or Prep test was invented!

[ZZZenAgain]

I see, thanks for explaining that

[pugsandseals]

Thanks for listening - I seem to spend my whole working life explaining this to concerned parents!

[noteventhebestdrummer]

wow, most of my beginner Y3 violin kids take their Prep Test in the 3rd term and Grade 1 the term after...Grade 2 a year after this. I don't have any who take 4 years to get to Grade 2 unless they are SN.

I realise this is not particularly helpful to the OP. I am sure that what helps mine enormously is that they have a weekly group class as well as individual lessons, things like playing in time are reinforced fairly effortlessly in a group setting.

[purplepidjin]

This thread has really shocked me - well the teacher has. I did music at uni, and while i wouldn't say i'm the best teacher in the world, i did some teaching on the side and for about a year after i finished.

i still managed a 100% pass rate over maybe a dozen children (piano, violin, viola, theory) and about five years. Some children were taking exams at the end of the first term, some I never entered for exams, and concentrated on getting them to enjoy playing.

IMlimitedE basic abilities will get you through grade one and probably two. if a child isn't playing in tune and in time by the end of about three months, the teacher is doing something wrong! There's loads of games you can play to improve rhythm; pitch on a stringed instrument takes a while to hear but can be taught at a basic level; and musicality at that level is really just obeying instructions about where to play loud and where soft!

[MyNameIsInigoMontoya]

Just one thing that I don't think you had mentioned OP - was it the same examiner both times?

I know examiners should all be marking to a similar standard, but my personal experience suggests that isn't really true and it is possible to get a particularly harsh examiner. Also, if you get one who has already failed you in the past then you are bound to be more nervous and less likely to do well if you get the same person again [thinking back to driving tests emoticon].

I remember doing a music exam once at the same time as my sister - our teacher thought we were both well prepared, and we had always done well in the past (typically merits or distinctions) so it was a great shock to find that she had barely scraped through, and I had failed (was gutted as she was younger than me!). I retook the exam at the next opportunity, which was very soon after so I hadn't done a huge amount of extra work in between, and this time passed with flying colours and I'm sure it was just due to having a different examiner.

I like ZZZen's advice too though, especially if tuning really is an issue for your DD (it's hard to tell without hearing whether it really is a big problem or the examiner was just being very harsh!).

[DeWe]

I've followed this with interest as someone who played the violin pretty badly for some time.

When we started (the county provided free lessons for four children a year) I remember the (very experienced) teacher expressed concern on one child because they were left handed and in her experience left-handers found it harder.

I wouldn't regard myself as particularly musical (certainly compared to dh) but I did grade 2 after 4 terms and grade 3 a year later so I'm a bit at the suggestion that 4 years to grade 2 is reasonably usual.

My brother learnt with the same teacher (he's tone deaf but doesn't know it) and never got tuning over several years, he used to start flat and get sharper over the piece. Agony to listen to. He failed grade 1 more than once. So you can't necessarily blame the teacher.

Pugandseals, you sound like you've an axe to grind over AB exams. I thought (from several sources) that Guildhall were generally considered easier exams, and not equivalent grades, so you'd expect them to be getting better pass marks.

I'd go for changing instrument, probably to piano or something, with the thought that maybe going back to the violin later. I wished several times when I was playing violin that I could play the piano too as I think it would have been helpful.

[pugsandseals]

Grade 1 within a year is only generally possible when teachers teach to the test IMO. This then slows progress later. There is also a huge difference between a 20 minute group lesson (mostly what I teach) and a 30 minute private lesson plus orchestra session per week.

[pugsandseals]

Trinity exams are not easier ( as the UCAS point system proves)- My point was that Trinity guarantee a strings specialist as an examiner which means they understand the particular characteristics of learning the violin.

I have nothing against AB exams, just explained my most recent experience of similar students taking exams with the different boards showed better results with Trinity through the lower grades. I believe the situation is turned on it's head for the higher grades & trinity are actually harder!

[mouldyironingboard]

I think an experienced teacher could develop your DD's musicianship while keeping the lessons enjoyable. The best way forward is to forget about exams but let her play lots of different pieces (and duets) to improve her sightreading and overall technique.

Above all else, making music should be fun and exams can spoil that. Unless your DD is wanting to audition for a particular orchestra or group there is no need for her to ever take another music exam unless she wants to. I don't agree that she needs to change instrument if she likes playing the violin.

Personally, I'm always delighted to teach students who don't want to take exams!

[Honeymum]

Hello all

Just to clarify a couple of things:

• different examiner for second exam, yes
  

• the teacher didn't reluctantly enter her for the first exam in March. He originally was going to enter her for the December exam and forgot. Afterwards he said she wouldn't have been ready. However, he never expressed any concern that she wouldn't get through before either attempt (in March and July), in fact the second time he was pretty encouraging
  

• I didn't mean DD couldn't carry a tune, just by comparison to DD2 who is an ace singer. Both girls have always done lots of singing - been in the school choir (for which they had to audition), had singing lessons for a bit (in a group at her dance school) and has taken part in local singing weekends/performances for primary age children. I think if she was tone deaf/really couldn't follow a tune we would have been told by now.
  

Thanks for all of your comments - really interesting stuff. I've not changed my mind - I think DD should stick with the violin if she wants to....with a new teacher.