If you think leaving the EU was a bad idea, what are you doing about it?

[Woj]

Change doesn't just happen, it's made...

Wow, 5 million people have died since Brexit! 😯

This type of comment appears regularly. What is it meant prove, if anything?

Remain campaign focussed on theoretical negatives of leaving as opposed to benefits of being in the EU. Might have been a different result on 23 June 2016 had they focussed on the positives.

Exactly my point. In any decision there are upsides and downsides and of course the only fact would be the upsides and downsides of remaining. Any upsides or downsides of leaving were purely theoretical. The campaigning on both sides was dire.

Many of the catastrophes forecast by remain never happened.

UK would be at the back of the queue for a deal with the US as per Obama April 2016. The opposite occurred.

It took long enough and wasn't a particularly good deal, but it is true to say that we were not at the back of the queue. Just not at the front either.

500,000 to 800,000 job losses just by a vote to leave as per UK treasury report April 2016. Unemployment fell from 2015 to Q3 2024 until Labour made it more expensive to employ people.

True, it did. Unemployment did drop by 0.9% however that was probably a result of all the bankers filling the hospitality jobs after they'd been made redundant due to their jobs being moved abroad, and that Europeans vacated when they decided the UK was a shit place to live and went home. Not exactly great for the GDP.

Labour have dropped a bollock with the NI for employers, along with quite a few other dropped bollocks. I refer my learned friend to my comment about none of them being able to run a bath currently and rest my case.

George Osborne was as much of a twat as David Cameron, so no faith in anything he had to say.

I don't actually think you can class politicians as experts anymore (if you ever could, but at least at one time they were more interested in doing the right thing for the country as opposed to doing the right thing for themselves). I have more faith in the economic studies from reputable places which still state that the UK economy did not benefit from leaving at all.

@HappiestSleeping

I don't actually think you can class politicians as experts anymore..

I agree. Might explain why turnout for general elections has declined.

if you ever could, but at least at one time they were more interested in doing the right thing for the country as opposed to doing the right thing for themselves

The EU offered a unilateral revoke of Article 50 in December, but MPs ignored.

I have more faith in the economic studies from reputable places which still state that the UK economy did not benefit from leaving at all.

I would rather look at measured data. Studies can estimate and forecast whatever the author wants them to show.

The EU offered a unilateral revoke of Article 50 in December, but MPs ignored.

We are in violent agreement about the politicians not doing what is in the interest of the country. Not taking the EU up on this is another example.

I would rather look at measured data. Studies can estimate and forecast whatever the author wants them to show.

I get that, and agree. However, the studies I refer to are based on measured data.

I wonder what the future of politics is. We are all trying to work out who is the least worst rather than who is the best. It is a very sad stage of affairs.

@HappiestSleeping

We are all trying to work out who is the least worst rather than who is the best

I think that has been happening for a long time. Labour landslide in 1997 as people fed up with the conservatives. Same again in 2024.

Maybe that’s why Reform has been topping the polls for a while. After decades of back and forth between conservatives and labour, maybe people are thinking the net yet tested party is worth a shot? No guarantee they would be better, but if the alternatives have continuously failed….?

Good luck with your EU passport application. I could have obtained an Irish passport via my father, but last time I looked the average process time was 30 months. I will be retired by then.

EEexpat, you live in a EU country, your passport is sorted.

Are you still planning to vote Reform?

Absolutely. To be honest, I think that Tony Blair was the beginning of problems. The previous governments (both Labour and Conservative) seemed to push the idea of self sufficiency much more, but with help from the state where required. From Blair onwards, there appears to be much less of that. There always seems to be some mysterious "they" who need to do something about whatever the issue is. Also, his idea that everyone should have a degree was a disaster. Everyone should have the opportunity to strive for a degree, but not everyone should be able to achieve one. They are supposed to be hard work and not easy to attain. That's the point. So, now you get people with a degree in underwater basket weaving who think they should earn £200k per year.

He was also the beginning of the 'sound bite'. Nothing of substance, just a short few words that captured the zeitgeist. That has continued to now.

This is the same reason that I think Reform are doing well, as Farage has tapped into that and is a good orator. That and your point about the electorate wanting change. The sad thing is that Farage has a track record of being self serving, and having no actual substance, however it doesn't stop his followers thinking he can walk on water. It is beginning to look like this is reducing though and it also looks like his own party are beginning to see him as a liability. His recent shenanigans with the £5m investigation and the by election are making him look more and more ridiculous. Part of me would love to see them win a general election as it would be hilarious to see them fall flat on their faces. It is too serious for that though. It is hard to imagine how anything could be worse than Labour or Conservative, other than Reform. I also think that the reason for a lot of the failure is the electorate wanting instant results at no cost. That is unfeasible.

I lost my main job after the referendum when I was one of the casualties of the investment bank I worked for moving thousands of jobs to Madrid, and Frankfurt. I had a few decent roles since then, but when my wife's illness became terminal and Liz Truss tanked the economy it was really the end of corporate life for me. I ended up working with dogs, which ironically is very lucrative and enjoyable, but it is really to keep my mind occupied while I decide what to do following my wife's death. I suspect my citizenship application will take a good couple of years, so whether I do anything with it remains to be seen. It will be nice to have choices though. I appreciate the good wishes.

I am watching what happens next in politics with interest.

@Smeuse

EEexpat, you live in a EU country, your passport is sorted.

I have an ILR for Bulgaria, but not a passport.

Bulgaria is a lovely place. At least, Sofia is (I only went there).

Ah well, you voted for Brexit.

It's not uncommon for Brexiteers to apply for an Irish passport to get free movement in the EU.

That's an assumption. Nowhere in this thread does @EEexpat state a vote for Brexit.

In the interest of fair and balanced arguments, facts should be stated. Whilst there is a lot that can be inferred, we should not make assumptions.

He has stated on many other threads that he voted Leave and he always defends Brexit and calls it a success.

It's a fact, advanced search will back it up.

I haven't seen other threads. I agree it is likely, but for this thread I hadn't seen it.

I only raised it as the argument of both sides falls apart when assumptions are made. It reduces credibility.

I read a lot of Brexit threads and he is a well recognised Brexiteer.

I make sure I vote for parties who promote closer ties to the eu. Aside from that I feel rather helpless. Brexit strikes me as being very similar to the state pension. Awful for the country but protected due to the demographic who receive it/vote for it. Nothing will be done until a party is brave enough to challenge them.

Remainer. As things can't go back to as they were and there is still a significant portion of population opposed to rejoining then I'd support a different trading relationship but better than our current one.

Barnier has said shengen and euro aren't a given. Basically they just want our money and will get it as otherwise we are frozen out of a massive market on our doorstep.

I don't think joining a pro European group would do anything and I don't want to adjitate for rejoin in full.

I do too, but to be honest, don't really pay attention to user names as much as I probably should. Just take each conversation based on the content of that thread.

Thing with Brexit is that there are those who have no coherent argument, and those who do, even if we disagree on the points. I have found the best way to challenge effectively is to listen, research, and present factual evidence to contest their view. I have yet to have any of those conversations where any coherent benefit of Brexit has been stated with factual evidence. It is all stats that can present a certain view, but that, when you scratch into it a bit, don't really hold up as benefits. This can be seen on this thread where the benefit appears to be that the downsides weren't as bad as the remainers predicted. I would concede that this is true, but it's a bit like treading in shit, but celebrating that the shit wasn't as smelly as it could have been.

@Smeuse

I voted leave in 2016. However, my vote, along with 33.4 million other votes, was set aside by the Gina Miller case. This established that the decision whether or not to remain in the UK had to be made by parliament.

The outcome was 498 MPs voted to leave and 114 MPs voted to remain in 2017.

Regards an Irish passport, my entitlement occurred the day I was born, eight years before the UK joined the EU. However, I never applied as I obtained a Bulgarian ILR in 2003.

Benefits of Brexit are:

Lower tariffs with the largest economy in the world, USA.

Lower immigration than the EU.

Ability to lower tariffs on imported goods. Rachel Reeves has recently done this.

UK has grown more than both France and Germany since 2019.

UK service sector, which is over 80% of UK GDP and employment, has grown in real terms by over 23% since 2019.

Downsides are:

Exporters of goods to the EU have more paperwork to deal with.

Visas are necessary if you want to work in the EU for more than 90 days per 180 day period.

However, the OP question was:

If you think leaving the EU was a bad idea, what are you doing about it?

My reply is:

Nothing.

my vote, along with 33.4 million other votes, was set aside by the Gina Miller case

The referendum was never legally binding, so your vote was not set aside. The topic went before Parliament who chose to support the result of the referendum, hence you were able to achieve what you voted for. Your vote was not set aside at all.

Lower tariffs with the largest economy in the world, USA.

This is despite the fact that we had a tariff free deal previously with a bloc that we did more business with. So, your statement is technically correct, but is not a benefit, just shit being less smelly.

Lower immigration than the EU.

Despite is being much higher than before Brexit. Again, less smelly.

Ability to lower tariffs on imported goods. Rachel Reeves has recently done this.

This was previously not necessary for our largest trading partner, so the net is that the UK is worse off.

UK has grown more than both France and Germany since 2019.

This is true, but most economic studies agree that growth would have been higher had we not left the EU. Then again, comparison to France and Germany being the correct comparison is debatable.

UK service sector, which is over 80% of UK GDP and employment, has grown in real terms by over 23% since 2019.

The 80% of GDP statement is true, but there are copious studies to show that the impact on high value services (financial services) has caused a net loss, and continues to do so.

So, while all those statements are true, the net effect on the UK for each of them has been negative, so none are really benefits at all.

If you think leaving the EU was a bad idea, what are you doing about it?
My reply is:
Nothing.

Despite @EEexpat having voted to leave and my vote being the opposite, I wholeheartedly agree with this (other than my applicationfor citizenship elsewhere). We would be far better off expending our energies on forging new trade deals, working out how to minimise the impact of the loss of financial services etc etc. If those trade deals end up being with the EU it would be great, however all the angst about 'did we do the right thing?' is mild entertainment on a forum such as this, but should not be taking up cycles in government.

We did it. I think the worst expression I heard that annoyingly describes it perfectly is 'the toothpaste is out of the tube'. We can't get the toothpaste back in, so we need to work out where to get another tube of toothpaste. If that ends up being deals with the US, despite them not being as good as we had before with a trading partner we did more business with, we just have to deal with it and move on.

@HappiestSleeping

but should not be taking up cycles in government.

Which is what was attempted by:

Labour
Liberal Democrats
SNP
Greens

between the 2017 and 2019 general elections.

Another reason why the UK will not rejoin. The EU may not trust an application to be serious.

MPs voted to leave in 2017 and then spent the next two and a half years trying to undo the vote! Not a good reference.

Agreed. I think the whole debacle has made the UK a laughing stock amongst the rest of the EU and the world.

The fact that the leave campaigners had no credible plan upon 'winning' the referendum says it all. Not a single one of them stepped up with 'right, we've won, here's our plan, let's get on with it'.

Ironically, the best deal that was proposed was the one May came up with despite being a remainer. We would probably have been better off saying to the EU 'we are out, our door is open, let us know what proposal you have, otherwise it will be no deal'. Instead we pissed about wondering what the hell we should do.

I think we have previously agreed that the state of politics is dire in this country. I am politically homeless, and have absolutely no idea who I would vote for in a GE. I can't even distinguish the least worst anymore. The only saving grace is that the worst is patently obvious, but that doesn't help any.

We would probably have been better off saying to the EU 'we are out, our door is open, let us know what proposal you have, otherwise it will be no deal'.

Theresa May’s mistake was to sign the deal suggested by the EU without Parliamentary consent as required by UK law (the Gina Miller case). Also, she tried to hide the attorney general legal advise regards the backstop from MPs before they voted. A red flag for sure.

When she was forced to provide the legal advice, the ERG objected on the basis that it could tie the UK to the EU forever without a say and ongoing costs. Likewise, Labour, Liberal Democrat’s and Greens thought if they objected to every proposal made by the conservatives, Brexit would not happen. They didn’t realise that if every deal is declined then you end up with a no deal anyway as per Article 50..

The outcome was a Johnson half in and half out deal which is detrimental to both sides of the channel regards goods export. Services faired better as they are not subject to the regulatory requirements imposed upon goods.

Theresa May’s mistake was to sign the deal suggested by the EU without Parliamentary consent as required by UK law (the Gina Miller case).

That isn't quite accurate though, as it was a hard negotiated deal between the UK and the EU. To suggest that it was all proposed by the EU is disingenuous.

Also, she tried to hide the attorney general legal advise regards the backstop from MPs before they voted. A red flag for sure.

This isn't quite true either as it was actually Geoffrey Cox, who was the attorney general, who provided a summary, answered questions about it for three hours in parliament, and advised that full publication was not in the public interest. So, if one views that as a mistake, it is his and not hers.

@HappiestSleeping

and advised that full publication was not in the public interest

How can a document, which related to:

A referendum that had a 72% turnout, and

A decision made by 498 MPs (77% of 650) to leave the EU

not be in the public interest?

Made sense for MPs to demand they saw it before voting.

No way would I vote for something if documents are not visible or withheld. I the field I work in, arbitration and dispute resolution, it would be called misrepresentation.

When it was seen, May’s deal was rejected three times. That was real remain behaviour. Didn’t like the first vote. So, let’s keep on voting until we get the result we want to hear.

As May was the PM at that time. Accountability was hers.

Signing without parliamentary approval went against the outcome of the Gina Miller case. This established that government could not decide unilaterally whether or not the UK remained in the EU, but it had to be an act of parliament. Hence parliament were entitled to know what they were voting for.

My solution was for our family to leave the UK and I’m very happy with that decision.