Brexit mega thread part 15a - looking forwards

[Talkinpeace]

Just rebooting the most recent thread

At the moment the UKs issues are rather over shadowed by events elsewhere
but maybe that is a good thing.

The German election on Sunday is worth watching
Right wing European politicians pulling out of CPAC speeches because they realise its not a good look
Farage floundering to stay relevant

and the possibility of the return of free movement for our kids if not us

Relations between mainland Europe and the UK remain a worthy topic for discussion

No, because there are sound economic and political reasons for collaboration with a nearby and powerful ally. Whereas there are no such reasons for Brexit. Frankly, anyone yelling 'Brexit Betrayal' over a reset that will help young people, farmers and small businesses is not thinking straight. Working with the EU is simple pragmatism.

Then, sadly, we don't have any basis for a discussion, do we?!
That's how a lot of these threads have gone, unfortunately.

Agreed. I'm just glad the damage Brexit did is being ever so slowly repaired.

Could you explain why you think the EU is 'an alien and alienating concept'?

What do you find alien, and what are you alienated from?

The EU is not a concept nor an ideology; it's a union of countries trying to maximise opportunities for seamless trade and achieve economies of scale in various areas. In fact, the lack of a 'concept' may be its issue when facing off populism and its own woolly 'concepts'. The only thing I can think of in terms of ideology and the EU is its goal to promote peace between old enemies (basically avoid France and Germany going at it again) because if your economy is deeply enmeshed with that of your neighbours then you may not want to invade them.
(But well, even that's not good enough a reason for some...)

Thank you for asking. Sure I'll try, hopefully without writing an essay.

First, my POV is that the nation-state is the top level geopolitical entity that I'm comfortable with. International co-operation can be a good thing, it can be virtually essential in some areas but it is just that, inter-national, nations should decide whether they co-operate or don't, to what degree, and how.

The EU, in my view is supra-national, it has taken on more and more of the features of the nation-state over time. It has a bank, a parliament (of sorts), a President, a court etc. As the EU has gained in power and influence, it seems to me that most of it's member states have weakened. The people who live their have less control over what their government does and those governments themselves have less control as they have ceded competence in many areas to the EU.

That's why I think it's alien. It is taking power away from my government and taking power away from me, I don't like that and I don't want it. I have a tiny, tiny amount of power and all the EU ever did for me was to dilute it further.

I want power to be exercised closer to those whom it affects, not further away. The people government must be able to get rid (wholesale) of the people elected to govern them. In the EU, obviously that can't happen because it's supra-national.

The EU presents as progressive (even benevolent) but IMO it isn't. It's a way to entrench further the power of those who already have power. Were it a common market into which everyone could sell but bascially nothing else, I'd be fully supportive, but it hasn't been that for around 30 years.

My other point is that, simply, many of these people are not our friends. America is, Canada is, Australia is, some individual EU Member states might well be but the major power players, no, absolutely they are not.

By chosing to align itself with the EU, the U.K. has spent decades putting distance and barriers between nations and peoples who are really our friends and allies in favour of cozying up to nearer neighbours who say they are, but are lying. That's why I feel alienated. I could write more about alienation in the .U.K. but that'll do for now.

America is our friend?

Where have you been living!

Funny how all the friends speak English

Anyone who thinks America is our friend, especially now, isn't paying attention.

Canada wants closer ties to the EU

I'd have thought most people's friends have the ability to speak the same language(s) that they do. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

So it appears. That's fine, people, whole nations even are perfectly entitled to want that, just as people who think like I do are entitled not to want it.

Hmmm, well, lets see who's military responds first if Canda were attacked by Russia. Here's a hint, it won't be the Europenan Union's.

NATO?

NATO would probably be third

1. Canada itself
2. United States
3. other NATO allies

Canada, Other NATO allies. The US under Trump? Highly debatable unless Trump saw something in it for himself.

Now if the US attacked Canada after they refused Trump's advances - who would step in then?

What if Russia attacks the UK, who would come to aid first do you think?

There is no EU military.

The UK has continued it's pre-EU/EC links the likes of Australia and Canada and tens of other 'friends' as countries under the Commonwealth (was once Empire - maybe @LouiseCollins28 might want it reinstated).

Multilingual people are less rare than you might think.

Honestly, that is quite sad to read on many levels. There's loads to unpick here but really for me a key point to make is that from its very inception, the EU's strategy is (or was until very recently) absolutely at its core influenced by the US, which is one major reason why it was disliked by the hard left from the off. I'm simplifying massively here but basically, the US went: 'we lead NATO on the military front and whilst we take care of Europe's security, we push for a prosperous and liberal trading bloc that will contribute to our own economic prosperity'. And despite DJT's lies, they have. A prosperous Europe has benefitted the US enormously. Even now, they have a massive trade surplus with the EU on services. Less on goods but that's a reflection of the changes in the US economy itself and where its strengths lay.
DJT is either historically and economically illiterate or manipulated by foreign powers who - for sure - are not our friends. Maybe a bit of both.
The myth that France and Germany, for these are the 'foreign powers' that you refer to in your post, are the traditional enemy is a weird leftover from the 19th century empire days. We've had an Entente Cordiale since 1904 so you're 121 years behind here.
Of course, the UK has had a somewhat privileged position with the US but make no mistake, it's not a relationship of equals. Until the Trumpster's return to the White House, the 'special relationship' had allowed us to have a 'soft landing' in the post Suez days (which pretty much marked the end of the Empire itself). Those days are now firmly over and we need to rethink everything, especially those Brexiteer myths of yours.

Thanks for your reply StandFirm. Of course the United States wanted a more prosperous Europe, as you quite rightly say it was in their economic interests as well as their security interests. Continental Europe (and the U.K.) WW2 were economically on their knees and potentially facing further expansionism from the USSR which the USA would be very keen to prevent.

My point is a strong, prosperous europe could be built without EU infrastructure. How do I know, because exactly this happened, with the EU not coming into being until the end of 1993, by which time of course the threat from the Soviets had evaporated anyway (for a time)

It is deeply interesting to me that it is (again) the resurgent threat from the east, this time Russia of course, which has prompted EU member states take baby steps towards taking their own defence seriously again - that's good. Euroe doesn't need a superstate with a bank, a court and a parliament to defence Europe against Russians though..

At no point ever have I considered the UK in a relationship of equals with the USA, nothing like. Not sure what your repeated references to Trump are all about.

As I have said on many of these threads, go to Madingley. Who's graves do you find there? Who's service people commemorated? not Frenchmen, not Germans, not Spaniards.

Easiest question of the day. The USA, since thousands of their own service people are based here.

Who's service people commemorated? not Frenchmen, not Germans, not Spaniards.

I think you forget the Poles who served this country during WW2. Not the Germans of course because we were fighting them. Not the Spaniards because they had just fought a vicious Civil War.

Easiest question of the day. The USA, since thousands of their own service people are based here.

With Trump, I am not sure. He would probably pull his service people out PDQ. He's besties with Putin, don't forget.

You are putting a lot of faith in the USA.

Fan of Trump by any chance?

There are plenty of people in graveyards all over the Netherlands who did their bit in WW2. Ditto other European countries. Your adulation of all things US leaves a bad taste. The US is not 'better' than Europe. It never was.

As for the courts - I quite like them. I think it's a good thing that it is possible to wear a cross around your neck in the workplace if you have strong Christian sentiments, even though I'm an atheist. I'm also in favour of workers having the right to paid leave, and the right not to work excessive hours. The UK would not have implemented any of those things if it weren't for the EU.

And it's a bit silly to say that the EU wasn't needed because the threat from the USSR had faded. Clearly that was a temporary retreat, and here they are again - having a supranational organisation of nations working (mostly) together feels like a pretty good idea righht now. You organise things like this because none of us know what the future holds.

Your main reason for hating the EU seems to be nationalism. Let's not forget it was nationalism that gave us two world wars.