to still be angry about Brexit?

[mrsmootoo]

I've mentioned this before and got shot down - 'move on', 'we won, you lost', 'red wall was justified', 'democracy' (although as Brexiter David Davis said, democracies can change their minds) etc etc. Anyway, if anything I am even more angry now than in 2016! Seeing queues at Dover/airports etc (I know not only down to Brexit, but it makes it worse) just reinforced it. I'm not going to rehash all the reasons here, but am just interested in whether other people are still as furious as I am. (And I do know it's not doing my stress levels any good!)

It’s a simple pint re opportunity for graduates anywhere in the world.

Harvard grads always have had options pre or post Brexit. I’m pretty sure employers play a role in attracting too graduate Ds and always have done.

The change is for a grad from Africa or India.

I welcome more nationalities. Geez people can pick holes in anything it’s too much. I’ll leave you to it.

Farmer friend of mine who voted out now wailing about his subsidies and the price of imported lamb ruining him. I told you so won’t help, but I think it every time he starts….

Re shutting off India graduates etc due to Russia, no I wouldn’t do that.

Too insular. The world axis is shifting anyway and we’ll need to find a way to connect.

A different POV is not picking holes in anything? why are you on here if you don't want a debate, so angry when you don't get your own way.

The Ukraine war will define Europe (if not the world) for decades to come, far far bigger than Brexit, Countries that are backing Russia are not our friends anymore, India has chosen its side.

Maybe we should take Russian graduates?

It was the silly Harvard point. I just thought oh god people will use anything. the US is more than Harvard.

But no I’m not for shutting down access from rest of the world. It’s good to have more graduates and experiences. In jobs and wherever.

Where are you drawing the line? No more Chinese in Bicester Village?

Is it EU good RoW bad these days…

Maybe it’s the Southern hemisphere that has made me more tolerant of SE Asia etc and non white

Half my degree was from there and it’s good to share knowledge with non western countries imo

Harvard was an example hence the etc after it, as you mentioned US and Canada, i am not so familiar with N.American Uni's.

The UK has some amazing Uni's, world renowned, as do many other US and European countries, they cannot be compared with ones from developing countries, that was my point or the Brightest and Best as the Govt would say.

I did some googling as I’d only heard too lime stuff and the list of universities is very high quality

Glad to say mine is on there 🙌

www.gov.uk/government/publications/high-potential-individual-visa-global-universities-list/high-potential-individual-visa-global-universities-list-2022

It included some EU ones, but branches out to RoW. Looks great to me all that talent. It could probably expand further tbh

Top line..

Even if we got back in EU tomorrow I’d keep it going. To close off top university grads now we’ve established the route wouldn’t be smart imo

Hang on @MarshaBradyo pls re read my posts on this subject? no where did i say we shouldn't be taking students from RoW.
My argument with you was saying students from Africa and India are not always high quality and that list from Uk Govt re enforces that.

Of course we should be taking the best students from that list, if they wish to come here.

However, we should not be taking students from China (or any country that is supporting Russia) i am dead against that, for the reasons i gave earlier.

Sounds provocative to cut China but I’m sure experts have more information than I do.

But where do you draw the line with China?

My university on that list has a large graduate population from China and SE Asia, would you say no to them too? So we take all graduates but no one who is Chinese. They are not a threat to my home country and it’s mutually beneficial to have them study there

Do you want Chinese tourists visiting and spending still?

How far we go will depend on if China arms Russia atm they are supplying components to the Russians which are then used for military purposes.

Its up to China, they can be genuinely neutral or they can re arm Russia.

But specifically on students, yes i would stop new Chinese students coming here to study, China is already setting up internal "police forces" in the West and many people are very concerned about Chinese influence on UK Uni's.
On Chinese tech, BT etc have/or will removed all Chinese equipment from their networks, even TikTok is being removed from PC's that have work access on them in some countries, similar with video surveillance equipment.

If they start sending weapons directly to Russia, of course, we would apply sanctions, likewise if they invade Taiwan too, including holiday visas.

China is not some benign state but its up to them how this goes, China is certainly saying the right things at the UN now, lets hope their actions match!

Haven't we learnt anything from appeasing Putin/Russian businessmen?

Does this strike you as harmless?

www.ft.com/content/4e528f1f-1558-40a6-b9c3-5ccb02d1e0c2

www.politico.eu/article/uk-police-china-london-glasgow-investigating-unacceptable-chinese-police-stations-in-britain/

www.reuters.com/technology/eu-commission-staff-told-remove-tiktok-phones-eu-industry-chief-says-2023-02-23/

www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/dec/05/bt-removing-huawei-equipment-from-parts-of-4g-network

So if they don’t do the things mentioned above you’d still stop students?

What about tourists? Bicester Village for example sells loads to Chinese tourists visiting. Right now, without any move on their part, would you stop it too?

I can see if they do move on Taiwan etc things would change

On new students (not ones already here) Yes,
did you browse those links? hardly the act of a friendly state is it? & China is currently supply Russia indirectly with weapons to use against civilian targets.

Chinese embassy officials took a protestor and beat him up, then left the UK.

Tourists? they are normally only here for a few days

Now my turn - Do you think what china is doing is acceptable and what would you do to deter them? or would you let them carry on as normal? treating china as say we treat Canada etc.

Ok so if they stay as they are and no new moves - no new students but keep tourists

Honestly I can’t really say what’s best, on issues such as security I don’t feel I have enough expertise or information

These things seem a balance of not making it worse but acting if they do. I’m glad a fair amount of time at the top will be asking these questions though - not just in the U.K. but US and elsewhere

Yes your probably right, its a difficult balancing act but i think the main issue with the West is the addiction to money, so we wont do much because we want Chinese cash and they know this.

Good diversion on a thread about Brexit though & more interesting.

All societies are addicted to money it's what makes the world go around. I don't think the sanction China folk have thought through the profound impact that would have on our world - it would crash western economies, herald a deep and long economic depression and impoverish billions and pretty much be the catalyst for World War 3. But this thread is about the damage that Brexit has done to the UK and it's profound already without adding a China element to the skip fire.

After these posts I heard the ex Ukrainian PM on LBC do an impassioned speech yesterday. He did mention India and China, on India and other non-western countries he said he really didn’t want it to become a fuller East v West war and that it’s important they are kept close.

Although it’s not always our decision unfortunately, if it does go the way not wanted it will be pretty bad

I don't think the sanction China folk have thought through the profound impact that would have on our world - it would crash western economies, herald a deep and long economic depression and impoverish billions and pretty much be the catalyst for World War 3.

That's as maybe. However Remember that people were told how bad Brexit would make things and they still voted for it This is a post-reason world. Or pre-reason. The outcomes are the same.

Not standing up to Russia because we were worried about economic impact has worked out so well hasn't it?

Pushing back on Chinese reliance wont make us weaker, it will ensure greater stability but it also shouldn't be forgotten that Putin wanted Brexit and a weaker UK & EU.
I don't think many would suggest Brexit has strengthened the UK.

Not standing up to Russia because we were worried about economic impact has worked out so well hasn't it?

Sadly being "the good guys" requires you react rather than proact. Look had WW2 developed. Ultimately of course, it was all the worse for Germany which is the universal outcome of such conflicts.

There's a reason cultures over the millennia have characterised apocalypse into 4 main strands. War, famine, pestilence and their conclusion of conquest (for some).

[Some - that I have heard over the years] people who lived through WW2 felt it was their end of days. I thought the 70s and in particular the 80s were the end of mine. Maybe they were ? Is this a dream ? Now we have a fresh generation for some of whom it must feel darker than the dawn.

Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose.

Kennedy stood up to the USSR over Cuba, we collectively stood up the USSR after WW2.

My mum lived through WW2 and never thought it was "end of days" i lived through the 70s and 80s and never thought it either.... but now? we lack leadership in the West and people like Xi and Putin have the whip hand, the war in Ukraine is not over by a long shot and public support is waning, we don't have the leaders to rally us and they may well give in, follow the focus group rather than lead the public.

See it with Starmer, v keen remainer (apparently) now a brexitier or Sunak, keen Brexitier, now seeking closer ties.

Topsy Turvey world.

To quote a song "that was then. This is now".

Notice that I qualified my statement with "some". Just for balance I know some folk had a whale of a time in WW2. One rather unreconstructed uncle liberating Paris and finding out just how grateful the younger ladies were.

But we grow fat and weak. Arguable precisely because we have had relative peace. So ultimately Kennedys "victory" will be footnote before the next cataclysm.

I know they say "past performance is no guarantee of future outcomes". However that is a phrase usually used too close to scams for my liking.

err we have offshored most of our manufacturing to China. One estimate was if China was to invade Taiwan now and the harshest sanctions applied the price of an iphone would be £5000 - huge price rises would explode right across every sector , logistics and supply chains would virtually implode and there would be a high chance of partial societal collapse in the west. And we would unite the world's largest country, Russia with the world's largest population, China both nuclear powers with the world's largest democracy, India abstaining if their recent UN vote is anything to go by. Only the insane would actually will that on. Thankfully I don't think any major players in the modern age are that mad. Well that's the hope anyway.

www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-11782285/If-China-supplies-weapons-Russia-world-change-writes-author-IAN-WILLIAMS.html

I don't think Starmer is a Brexiteer, I think he's playing a long game (she said, hopefully). Any sniff of anti- Brexit from him or any politician at the moment would be leapt on by our lovely media and the ERG headbangers and he would be shot down in flames.