to still be angry about Brexit?

[mrsmootoo]

I've mentioned this before and got shot down - 'move on', 'we won, you lost', 'red wall was justified', 'democracy' (although as Brexiter David Davis said, democracies can change their minds) etc etc. Anyway, if anything I am even more angry now than in 2016! Seeing queues at Dover/airports etc (I know not only down to Brexit, but it makes it worse) just reinforced it. I'm not going to rehash all the reasons here, but am just interested in whether other people are still as furious as I am. (And I do know it's not doing my stress levels any good!)

@ILoveAllRainbowsx Not racist- simply pointless!!

If the big issue was about freedom of movement then replacing Europeans with Asians is pointless and has cost £400 billion. People from EU usually work and stay a few years and then frequently go back to their home nation- same with lots of Brits in the EU. Africans and Asians are less likely to do that. It's nothing to do with racism - it's to do with the fact it's pointless if freedom of movement was a big factor and in reality would only work one way- Brits aren't rushing to live in Pakistan or Uganda .

Oh and it was perfectly possible to trade all over the world before Brexit- there seems to be some kind of an idea it's opening markets that were not available to us before which is total hogwash- the only difference now is they don't have to adhere to certain standards .

Facts facts facts! In the face of Brexit denial…

Ilove let’s save our breath! It is pointless. Their is no recognition whatsoever of the issues - the real issues.

The Eurozone is now a post democratic superstate. We see technocrat leaders installed in Italy without consent - literally running Italy from Brussels/Berlin. France is suspended in a vacuum of extremes either hateful racism or the Macron EU puppets wannabe leaders of the EU. The French simply want a moderate party that offers them a real voice. We watch with dismay as referendums are ignored across Europe and rerun if they produce the ‘wrong’ answer. Even Ireland is guilty of this.
The moment of truth is fast approaching with the energy crisis creating a huge recession in the very countries that prop up the whole of the EU.

The super state ideal has already failed and fallen silent on the world stage.

These are our Allies and friends I want the best for them but I am not prepared to sink our country and our people into a similar ideology of super state failure. No. The writing was on the wall years ago when Berlin gave up pretending it was a simple member of a big club and took over the EU without a murmur from any country and now runs it like a cabal, of course all of the fiscal decisions made to benefit their own economy.

We were not able to make our own trade deals or agreements actually. Your post is incorrect

Sound bites dear, sound bites.
Notice the words IF or MAY
And you are missing all of the companies pouring into London I note. I am here now and it’s more dynamic than it’s ever been.

I am bored now. See you in another twenty years for reflection and an assessment.

@Festoonlights

The main question which is never answered, it that if belonging to the EU is so great, why do they want to punish us for leaving (especially France) and why do they make it so hard for other countries to leave?

Surely, if it was so great, the rest of the EU would be happy that we were leaving as we would not be getting all the "benefits" and there would be more for the other countries.

And you are missing all of the companies pouring into London

Which ones? Can we have some evidence?

The position in two or so decades will be interesting to see

I can’t see that things won’t get harder, and as I said resources scarcer and cotizens wanting security more

You can reach a place where borders are bi partisan and people seek out left government without changing border control (Aus)

I many years the pain some still evidently feel and division it caused could swing either way - but I’d factor in climate issues and mass migration when thinking about direction for borders

I know - it’s not a jail - it’s supposed to be a voluntary organisation that you pay to join. It was not a charity but a business model - and the over sentimentality seen on here is truly ridiculous.

I guess we were one of the biggest net contributors and a nuclear armed country with many alliances and global clout, despite what the naysayers might argue the U.K. was a big player in the EU and we have probably left a sizeable hole in their finances and policy making they are quite literally poorer without us.

There is no reason to feel angry. It’s an outdated business model that no longer works for us. The cultural and social connections can still thrive and exist.

A few companies open hot desks in Amsterdam and the hand wringing begins in earnest - short of any tangible consequences we see the same pp scanning the airways for anything that suits their narrative.

It is always a ‘friends business’ that has suffered from brexit - never any reported direct impact. For 99% of people it’s made no difference at all! Or it takes twice as long to order an Italian cost these days, shock horror. It’s pitiful. Oh there’s a queue at Dover forgetting the last 30 years of the M2 lorry parks.

I have no time for it at all these days, and feel sorry for people clinging to a mirage.

@Festoonlights we didn't need to individually make our own deals- they were all there , ready made and were at least as good as any we can make. There were even some good informal arrangements with USA in place for smaller value goods. The point stands though- we could trade anywhere , (well at least if you had a market there-) I know because our business did so. There were lots of implications that you couldn't trade 'all over' - that is simply not true.

I was simply pointing out your inaccuracy when you said nobody had given any examples of how Brexit had disadvantaged them. There are many other examples in the thread.
And not the old 'why don't you move to the EU if you love it so much?' again?. It's so glib and witless and really just designed to shut people up. In a healthy democracy people have every right to voice dissent and to object, if they think things have been done badly.
Why didn't you move away at some point in the last 40 years, if living in the EU was so dreadful? And you rail against people spending their miserable existence whinging on here, yet here you are ranting as much as anyone else.

Which companies are pouring into London @Festoonlights?

@Festoonlights absolute poppycock- it's certainly affected our business. It killed mail order stone dead outside of UK and that's where there was good margin to be had and our parent company has had to hire 3 staff to deal with overseas distributors and customs , distributors give the business lower margins and that's 3 staff to actually make less profit .

Yes it doesn't affect everyone who has a UK centric business but it certainly makes anyone who would have invested in a business here that has an import/export component and particularly manufacturing -- unless the UK was a large enough market in itself.

I find those justifying it from a trade aspect are usually just as self interested as I am , usually well off- often have a job that involves no aspect of actual trading with their own money- accountant, management consultant , hedge funder.

I've got more respect for the honesty of a plumber who says I'm making £5 an hour more as there is a shortage .

@Festoonlights
As someone who works in grocery retail I can tell you it NEGATIVELY affects my job every. single. day.

'Just hire a desk in Amsterdam' - errrrrrrrrrr no that doesn't help big organisations.

Why do you think all retailers have removed best before dates - Waitrose and M&S are the last to change over - it's because it's slower to bring food across.

There are not enough people to work in agriculture - both seasonal and in protein processing.

The UK used to be a really important market for big food & FMCG companies - they would invest in factories etc They are now moving production to Europe.

So can we get things done? Yes - but everything is harder, slower and more expensive. The UK is at the bottom of the pecking order and investment in manufacturing is decreasing &/or being off-shored to mainland europe.

The new export rules have really fucked over farmers and fishing.

So @Festoonlights I have given you the perspective of one of the sectors that employs the most people in the UK.
Please tell me the benefits that you are experiencing - you have posted a lot but I don't think you've mentioned a tangible benefit. Also what sector are you in?

Oh and just in case you think I'm so rabid lefty- I'm all for very strict border control for non EU , whether white or non white. At least with the EU it worked 2 ways- so had mutual benefits- whether people took advantage of that was their choice - whereas I can't just toddle off to USA or Australia and live and work legally

@Pipsquiggle bang on!! And what about the really good pharma and life sciences industry, many of those have already moved a while ago - so we lose well paying business and expertise to be replaced with what? More jobs at B&Q and firms that need to circumvent EU regulations- spam farms etc, property developers for rich Chinese ogliarchs

Never mind levelling up-- it's a race to the bottom. We won't become Singapore upon Thames because our population do not have that rigid mindset. But never mind, the truly wealthy here have retained their off shore rights and we can gradually do away with workers rights and force people to do the shittier jobs for their benefit money- and if you don't think that's coming in- want to take bets??!

@Crikeyalmighty again, I'm in completely agreement. It's frightening.

@Crikeyalmighty

Well, if it so great, why does the EU do its utmost to stop other countries leaving?

Why do they want to make an example of us and punish us?

Could it be that they don't want rats deserting a sinking ship?

Festoonlights, you say 'it is always a ‘friends business’ that has suffered from brexit - never any reported direct impact.', but then the examples you give of 'many many friends that trade with the EU and have either simply adjusted to the extra paper work or source from other countries.'

So you can use friends as an example but if someone does the same to show the negative impacts of Brexit, that's just hearsay with no basis in fact?

You really can't have it both ways like a typical Brexiteer.

@darlingdodo

Well, if it so great, why does the EU do its utmost to stop other countries leaving?

Why do they want to make an example of us and punish us?

Could it be that they don't want rats deserting a sinking ship?

The EU isn't punishing us - we are now subject to the laws of third countries, which we helped to draw up when we were still members. That is the deal that Frost and Johnson chose for us and on which Johnson won his election, even though he's now trying to tear it up. The EU has largely moved on and doesn't think about Brexit nearly as much as some would like to believe.

@Onlyhereforthebatshitneighbours

@Pipsquiggle

Well, if it so great, why does the EU do its utmost to stop other countries leaving?

Why do they want to make an example of us and punish us?

Could it be that they don't want rats deserting a sinking ship?

Yes, do tell @Festoonlights

@ILoveAllRainbowsx because it makes it a pain in the arse for their members. Personally I don't think they would give that much of a toss if certain countries left- but no one is going to say that as it kind of goes against the 'ethos'

The UK mattered to a far bigger extent than say 'Bulgaria' for trading reasons for their own members, as would France, Germany, Netherlands etc

Thing is none of these other countries despite all their mouthing ever actually do leave- because they know it's cutting off their nose to spite their face

@Midnightblack most if the uk has moved on as well in real life its only on here I see constant moaning