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Brexit

to still be angry about Brexit?

810 replies

mrsmootoo · 01/08/2022 13:35

I've mentioned this before and got shot down - 'move on', 'we won, you lost', 'red wall was justified', 'democracy' (although as Brexiter David Davis said, democracies can change their minds) etc etc. Anyway, if anything I am even more angry now than in 2016! Seeing queues at Dover/airports etc (I know not only down to Brexit, but it makes it worse) just reinforced it. I'm not going to rehash all the reasons here, but am just interested in whether other people are still as furious as I am. (And I do know it's not doing my stress levels any good!)

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Midnightblack · 04/08/2022 12:16

worriedatthistime · 04/08/2022 12:15

@Midnightblack most if the uk has moved on as well in real life its only on here I see constant moaning

I think that depends upon which sector you work in.

Crikeyalmighty · 04/08/2022 12:17

And this idea they are 'punishing us' is total poppycock. We now have the same rules as Australia etc except it's actually worse because there are far more reciprocal agreements in place with regards to working there and staying there for many other countries - none of which we have in place because we won't agree to 'reciprocal' I think that's one thing Starmer would change- even if we don't join EEA etc (which I think we would under a fancy new name)

Crikeyalmighty · 04/08/2022 12:22

@worriedatthistime maybe if you work for the local council or a teacher or a shop etc- maybe some of those don't really care-- most people I know who work for any business that is beyond being a local only business and certainly a UK only business have plenty of moaning going on. It's the knock on effects, less tax take means less money for public services unless you borrow vast amounts. Ukraine issues have slightly masked this as uk has been doing strange deals involving buying and selling gas apparently which has upped the tax take short term

Anothernamechangeplease · 04/08/2022 12:32

ILoveAllRainbowsx · 04/08/2022 11:36

@Crikeyalmighty

Well, if it so great, why does the EU do its utmost to stop other countries leaving?

Why do they want to make an example of us and punish us?

Could it be that they don't want rats deserting a sinking ship?

This is such an ignorant post from a typical "have our cake and eat it" Brexiteer.

The EU is not punishing us or making an example of us. They are merely saying, quite reasonably in my view, that if you decide that you no longer want to be a part of a particular club, then you should not expect to continue enjoying the benefits of club membership after you have left.

I haven't yet been able to work out whether Brexiteers are actually too thick to understand this is just a basic consequence of the choices that they have made, or if it's just an attempt at rhetoric so that they can try to shift the blame.

darlingdodo · 04/08/2022 12:34

The EU are not 'punishing' us, they are just playing by the rules, treating us as a non EU member, treating people from the UK the same as people from Australia, New Zealand, Guatemala etc.

Expecting anything else is close to having cake and eating it territory. It's like cancelling your gym membership but still wanting to do Rob's spin class because it's fun and does you good, then using the gym's jacuzzi, and being snitty when you're told you can't do that anymore.

ILoveAllRainbowsx · 04/08/2022 12:35

Crikeyalmighty · 04/08/2022 12:17

And this idea they are 'punishing us' is total poppycock. We now have the same rules as Australia etc except it's actually worse because there are far more reciprocal agreements in place with regards to working there and staying there for many other countries - none of which we have in place because we won't agree to 'reciprocal' I think that's one thing Starmer would change- even if we don't join EEA etc (which I think we would under a fancy new name)

@Crikeyalmighty

No, they are punishing us. They have given us a worse deal than other non-EU countries because they don't want other countries to leave a sinking ship.

Anothernamechangeplease · 04/08/2022 12:37

darlingdodo · 04/08/2022 12:34

The EU are not 'punishing' us, they are just playing by the rules, treating us as a non EU member, treating people from the UK the same as people from Australia, New Zealand, Guatemala etc.

Expecting anything else is close to having cake and eating it territory. It's like cancelling your gym membership but still wanting to do Rob's spin class because it's fun and does you good, then using the gym's jacuzzi, and being snitty when you're told you can't do that anymore.

That's a great idea @darlingdodo. My gym membership is up for renewal later this month and I have been debating whether to renew it as I haven't been making the best use of it. I think I'll cancel it and just demand to use the facilities anyway - after all, it would be totally unreasonable of the gym to punish me just for cancelling my contract!

Anothernamechangeplease · 04/08/2022 12:38

ILoveAllRainbowsx · 04/08/2022 12:35

@Crikeyalmighty

No, they are punishing us. They have given us a worse deal than other non-EU countries because they don't want other countries to leave a sinking ship.

Can you give us some specific evidence of what they're doing to punish us, please?

thesonicoscillator · 04/08/2022 12:39

Furious. I live in Europe & I wasn't allowed to vote in the referendum, we were simply ignored, out of sight, out of mind. Thousands of us couldn't vote. Maybe if we had been allowed to, it may have swung the vote. It's been hell trying to get all the correct documents to live in Europe legally and retain my pre Brexshit rights despite being resident here for a long time. Public sector workers here found it confusing and the process was hard to understand for them too, not their fault either. The amount of days off work for it (taken out of my annual holiday allowance ) and the money spent has driven me mad. Citizenship in my adopted country is long, costly and painful. I want to stay British too. I went back to UK for the first time recently post Brexit, it broke my heart, Britain is definitely broken. My adopted country is by no means perfect, and once upon a time I used to think UK was years ahead of it in so many ways. I now consider myself fortunate to live in Europe. 🇪🇺

Crikeyalmighty · 04/08/2022 12:42

@ILoveAllRainbowsx where do you read this rubbish!! No they haven't- if you read my comment below in some ways there are worse terms for UK than the USA or Canada or Singapore , because those countries have in place 'enhanced' terms for citizens of EU member states. The UK has done nothing of the sort , so we are not on the EUs 'preferred country' list. I lived in Denmark till May- now back in the UK for various reasons- I know the conditions in great detail as I had to !! But hey -who needs actual experience and knowledge. Frost and Johnson could have agreed this as part of the deal , but didn't as it didn't play well to the ERG and 'go it totally alone' or their more xenophobic voters

Blossomtoes · 04/08/2022 12:43

They are merely saying, quite reasonably in my view, that if you decide that you no longer want to be a part of a particular club, then you should not expect to continue enjoying the benefits of club membership after you have left.

Exactly that. It’s like resigning your gym membership and then complaining that they won’t let you use their pool any more.

Midnightblack · 04/08/2022 12:54

A worse deal than any other country?? This was the deal hailed as 'fantastic' by Johnson and Frost, so wonderful that nobody needed to scrutinise it. When the likes of Grieve, Soames, Clarke etc suggested that it might be prudent for Parliament to take a look, Johnson kicked them out of the party.
Frost has since admitted that the EU offered us a visa-waiver and he turned it down.
They aren't punishing us - these are the consequences of the deal that Frost and Johnson negotiated and that their supporters celebrated.

Lonelycrab · 04/08/2022 12:55

No, they are punishing us. They have given us a worse deal than other non-EU countries because they don't want other countries to leave a sinking ship

Deluded, victim mentality and a distortion of the truth based on English exceptionalism. But Brexit was founded on delusions, your sunlit uplands that don’t actually exist, so it’s to be expected.

The “punishments” are simply the cold hard reality of the barriers that the U.K. govt has imposed upon itself.

And my very brexy DF has been saying the eu is about to implode. Since 2004😂

The “united” kingdom is looking far more at risk as a Union, but you’d need some sense of reality and self awareness to understand that.

SerendipityJane · 04/08/2022 12:58

Any deal the UK makes with a country that is better than the deal that country has with the EU will see the EUs deal upgraded to match the UKs terms. The only way the UK can leverage this is to ensure it offers pisspoor (or non existent) standards that the EU won't accept (see Australia).

Crikeyalmighty · 04/08/2022 13:02

I'm really not sure where people get some of this rubbish from- maybe economics and politics and media should now be compulsory at secondary school.

If someone is honest and says 'well we are better off due to huge contracts or off shoring' well I can't agree with them but at least it's honest' or if they say 'I'm earning £4 an hour more due to not being able to get staff'

But you can't just dismiss the underlying situation in lots of other businesses or the effect on UK GDP - it's serious .

To be frank at least joining the EEA would actually alleviate much of this

basilmint · 04/08/2022 13:38

We have left on exactly the terms that our government negotiated. They didn't want to be in the more favourable EEA or even customs union arrangements. They chose complete third country status with all the costs and administration that comes with that. There should be the opportunity to negotiate some bilateral agreements but that's not going to happen any time soon as the UK government has been belligerent in all negotiations to date and is threatening to renege on the agreements it has signed (NI protocol). It's hardly surprising the EU aren't currently desperate to negotiate new arrangements.

SerendipityJane · 04/08/2022 13:43

It's hardly surprising the EU aren't currently desperate to negotiate new arrangements.

They don't want to, and the UK can't. I'm sure someone could write a cautionary nursery rhyme out of that.

Meanwhile, EU visa waivers will be needed from late next year.

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/travel-rule-changes-brexit-eu-schengen-area-etias-passport-b1016390.html

Travellers will need to apply for the ETIAS online, using a valid passport, email address, and a debit or credit card to pay the application fee, which is expected to cost €7 and be valid for two years.

UK nationals will also need to provide their personal details and answer security and health questions. The application will be checked across a number of security databases.

Pipsquiggle · 04/08/2022 13:59

ILoveAllRainbowsx · 04/08/2022 11:57

@Onlyhereforthebatshitneighbours

@Pipsquiggle

Well, if it so great, why does the EU do its utmost to stop other countries leaving?

Why do they want to make an example of us and punish us?

Could it be that they don't want rats deserting a sinking ship?

@ILoveAllRainbowsx

Eh? What are you going on about?

Which other countries want to leave? I am aware of minority factions in virtually every European government that aren't keen on the EU but not aware of any other country as foolish as the UK to actually want to leave.

They are NOT punishing us, please do not believe the BS on this that they are punishing us. They are treating us as an outside / third nation

@ILoveAllRainbowsx why do you like Brexit so much? How has it improved your life? Which sector do you work in?

vera99 · 04/08/2022 17:35

Rachel Johnson's take in the Speccie is probably Boris's view now he's demob happy "Oops....sorry I broke a country"

I came back from Tuscany for the wedding bash and I’m not surprised about the staycation boom, as foreign travel is a total mare. Instead of the ‘Schengen wave’, each passport must be scanned and wet-stamped by a person at a desk or in a kiosk in case you overstay your welcome in Europe: i.e. we have a hard border for the first time in my adult life. When Liz ’n’ Rishi were asked whether the cluster shambles at Channel ports was anything to do with Brexit I was stunned when both went for a post-truth, black-is-white, straight-to-camera ‘no’. Astonishing. This at a time when it is harder to leave the country legally than to enter by sea illegally and you can get to Australia faster than France. It seems that Brexit is going the way of true communism. Votaries of the cult will simply announce we just haven’t done it right and tried hard enough. The only consolation is my new not-blue-but-black passport is much more romantic now, with the inked oblongs already saying Innsbruck, Zurich, Pisa, Ibiza. Gained: a schoolboy stamp collection. Lost: the right to transit, and to work and live in 28 countries, in a smug flash of burgundy. The government’s conclusion: worth it.

newnamethanks · 04/08/2022 18:08

Well I'm missing Boz banging on about growth. 13.5% inflation for 2023. That's certainly a growing figure. I expect it's the fault of Jeremy Corbyn.

MarshaBradyo · 04/08/2022 18:11

newnamethanks · 04/08/2022 18:08

Well I'm missing Boz banging on about growth. 13.5% inflation for 2023. That's certainly a growing figure. I expect it's the fault of Jeremy Corbyn.

Do you wish Corbyn had won?

out of interest

vera99 · 04/08/2022 18:13

www.ft.com/content/56ea8a4c-23ad-4e7f-8aa7-cb2543e1d15e

Standard Brexitteer deflection ploy ......."but Jeremy Corbyn" - move on as you like to say 😁

But like it or not, Brexit has crimped the freedom of holidaymakers too. As we saw last month when Dover and Folkestone ground to a halt as they tried to absorb the annual exodus of British families off to camp in Brittany or the Dordogne, travel to Europe is harder now.

The Trade and Cooperation Agreement allows for “visa-free” travel for UK citizens for 90 days in any 180-day period, but regulating that access creates additional hassle — and there are more hassles to come next year.

So on one level, the denials from leading Brexiters that the delays had nothing to do with Brexit were comical — according to calculations by Dover port it now takes 90 seconds per car to stamp passports, compared with 58 seconds before Brexit. That’s an increase of more than 50 per cent. Go figure.

But on another level, the Brexiters had an unwitting point — which was that Dover has always been a fragile bottleneck and, when the French deigned to fully staff Dover’s customs booths, actually the system just about worked. And it has since.

The real takeaway here, which seems to be lost on some of the Brexit fraternity, is that now the UK no longer has free-movement rights, it is actually more dependent on European goodwill for smooth border crossing than in the past.

As Katy Hayward and Tony Smith wrote this week for UK in a Changing Europe: “Although it may seem counter-intuitive, ‘taking back control of borders’ is necessarily an exercise in collaboration. Without that, the queues will only grow.”

And so it has proved. A source at Dover tells me that, since the great July dust-up, when the port formally accused the Police aux Frontières (PAF) of “woefully inadequate” staffing, the French couldn’t have been more amenable.

They’ve been opening more booths when asked, shifting staff quickly between lorries and cars according to traffic fluctuations and generally being all-round efficient. “All we could ask for,” says my man on the White Cliffs.

But what the July foul-up showed was just how quickly that co-operation can end, and the consequences when it does. And this cuts both ways.

In a couple of weeks the flows will reverse, and all those UK holidaymakers will be in Calais at the mercy of the UK Border Force staffing levels, waiting to get home.

During the July crisis Jean-Marc Puissesseau, president of the ports of Calais and Boulogne, complained to my colleagues in France that his port was being “held hostage” by the failure of the UK authorities to send enough staff.

“There are not enough UK police on Calais side either, and I’ve been warning about this for several months,” he said. “We need 50 per cent more people to ensure the smooth functioning of the port.” Touché.

I asked the UK Home Office to respond to this and it declined to engage with Puissesseau’s complaint, but given the reciprocal nature of borders noted above, it would be prudent of the UK side to ensure sufficient staffing in Calais later this month.

Because crossing EU borders is going to get harder, not easier in the years to come when the EU introduces its ETIAS visa-waiver system (now delayed to November 2023) and an even more painful Entry/Exit System that will require biometric checks (fingerprint or iris scans) at the border.

At the moment both Dover and Folkestone are clear there is no workable solution to implementing those biometric checks in a port setting that doesn’t involve people getting out of cars (not safe) or hugely increasing that new 90-second processing time (not practical, as we saw).

The truly bonkers part is that the EU and UK systems that capture this (identical) biometric data are legally and technically separate. EU law requires that the data are captured under the direct supervision of an EU border official, and the capture of the data must be done at the border. The expectation at the UK ports is that the implementation of the system will need to be delayed again.

Logically, you’d think there needs to be some form of a political-level agreement that takes a much more risk-based approach to managing the Short Straits.

In a world of mutual trust and goodwill (don’t laugh) it’s hard to argue that the crocodiles of family Volvos and Ford people-carriers heading for Dover present a significant security risk when illegal boat crossings are running at 700 people a day.

But designing mutually workable solutions is going to require real co-operation between the UK and the EU, which, to put it mildly, has not been the tenor of the campaigns of Liz Truss or Rishi Sunak as they promise a showdown with Brussels over Northern Ireland.

There is a belief in Tory Brexiter circles that relations with the EU can be siloed. That might be true for Ukraine, but in a host of other areas, whether science collaboration under Horizon Europe, or indeed border management, that’s a very naive position.

MarshaBradyo · 04/08/2022 18:16

Standard Brexitteer deflection ploy ......."but Jeremy Corbyn" - move on as you like to say

it’s always brought up like pp. Not sure why as apparently they want people to move on, but I am interested if it’s due to lament.

MarshaBradyo · 04/08/2022 18:17

Plus not a ‘Brexiteer’

vera99 · 04/08/2022 18:23

Oops sorry Marsha saw the JC and came to hasty conclusions and a cheap jibe!