Brexit mega thread 7 : global Britain is looking rather insignificant.....

[ChiswickFlo]

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That doesn't mean everyone in the country has to chose it. A majority of those who vote is totally fine

So had we had council election levels of voting (around 25% or less) and a majority either way, thats fine?
Surely vital decisions, decided by referendum, should have minimum levels of voting/majority, just as any local sports club would have to change its rules.

I would like it not being able to influence me but it seems that not only is that unrealistic but on here I get castigated for even wanting it. I want to be able to influence people I vote for/or against who are my representatives

Unfortunately for the you, the EU is a v powerful bloc, we are on the edge of it and it will now make decisions that we will have to abide by and act one, whether we like it or not but with zero influence, sooner or later it will form its own armed forces, have a foreign policy we may not like, introduce rules on goods traded that we will have to abide by, environmental regs and more directly, be able to attract business to the EU e.g. a Market of 450m vs one of 66m.

The way to change an organisation is from within.

Alex Salmond tried to get a provision put into the Referendum Bill that each of the constituent nations of the not very United Kingdom needed to vote in favour of leaving but was told it wasn't necessary as the referendum was purely advisory Iirc, the Conservative MPs didn't even listen to his contribution to the debate on the proposed amendment but dutifully traipsed through the lobby to vote against it.

As usual LouiseCollins completely misses the point about self-determination and the ability to have a say and be listened to within a Union.

I know which Union I'd rather be part of - one where there are procedures for the constituent parts to be listened to and one where national sovereignty contrary to the lies of the Brexiters is indeed respected.

"I know which Union I'd rather be part of - one where there are procedures for the constituent parts to be listened to and one where national sovereignty contrary to the lies of the Brexiters is indeed respected."

Me too prettybird.

1000%

But Louise, we used to able to vote for MEPs which gave us influence.
What am I missing?

I want to be able to influence people I vote for/or against who are my representatives. If those people are in pan European super groups I can't do that.

@LouiseCollins28
Why can't you influence MEPs?

And do you think that the logical conclusion of your sentiments should be taken on board by citizens of NI and Scotland? They are truly governed by parties in Westminster which by and large do not represent them, whereas you only like to cod yourself that the European Parliament and all the other EU institutions are not representative.

So Scotland and Northern Ireland vote in while England and Wales vote out, what's the result in your history book. Who's popular will prevails? and how do you justify the enacted outcome?

You opt for national self determination, since it is apparently such an important principle.

And then London could follow.

I've no desire to influence the EU. I don't expect for one moment that UK influence on the EU is like when we were a member state, to think that would be absurd.
You don't want the UK government to participate in trade talks with the EU? Discussions on travel, immigration, rights of Britons living abroad in the EU? Reciprocity?

Just because Britain is an island doesn't mean it can pull up the drawbridge.

I had been voting for 27 years before my preferred candidate got elected, keeping his seat for 13 years, followed for me by another seven years of a wasted vote. Others never get the candidate they want in. Contrast that with EU elections where I have always got someone I was happy with elected.

As for "global" Johnson and others seem to have maps where there is a void where Europe is.

That last paragraph was in response to Brexiters not wanting to trade with neighbours, preferring instead to trade literally across the other side of the globe.

Another 1000% from me.

Just so I'm clear then, if any one of the 4 nations voted to remain and the other 3 voted to leave then remain was the outcome?

MEPs were part of huge transnational groupings, and elected from lists. I had literally no say in where an MEP candidate appeared on their party's list and so zero connection between me and my representative(s). Also since they are part of those huge groups you've basically no control over what they all do collectively.

Math, I fear you and Pretty haven't answered my question. If, (as it was) the referendum were held as a single franchise, and the result, (as it did) saw a majority of 2 nations vote to stay and 2 nations vote to leave then what is the enacted result?

2 in and 2 out doesn't work because of the single franchise bit. So what's the outcome in your history books?

So you think you have any influence over your MP here? their selection? or what they do once in the 'commons... its always a collective, as remainers found out - zero representation.

At least under the EU model, it was PR, so many more represented, though in all likelihood, you never actually voted in the EU elections, they had very poor turn out.

So I "can" have some influence over the selection of my MP if I join the local party. My influence on an MP is severely limited I accept that but I do get to cast a vote which gives my verdict on what my reprsentative has done or not done.

Oh and suggesting I "never actually voted" in European Parliamentary elections? You picked the wrong person to level that sort of thing at I'm afraid. Trust me, I vote for somebody in every election where I can.

Louise it's clear from your post that you don't know how various EU countries elected their MEPs. It was up to each country to decide which system to use. In the UK we had two systems in use - the D'Hondt system in GB and STV in NI.

A Scottish poster can confirm or correct me but I believe that there were 4 different systems in use in Scotland. D'HONDT for EU, partly list and partly direct for Holyrood, FPTP for a GE and STV for local govt?

@LouiseCollins28 Well done, the UK voter turnout in EU elections was very poor around 33% as an average.

But i don't really know why you are so hung up on MEP selection when you re not bothered about any UK MP selection process.

Plus of course, our system completely ignores the losing candidates votes, even if collectively they out number the winners total :(

The EU system is far more democratic.

"Math, I fear you and Pretty haven't answered my question. If, (as it was) the referendum were held as a single franchise, and the result, (as it did) saw a majority of 2 nations vote to stay and 2 nations vote to leave then what is the enacted result?
2 in and 2 out doesn't work because of the single franchise bit. So what's the outcome in your history books?"

Then, as the original bill actually stated, there should have had to be a supermajority, before major constitutional change and removing people's rights.

Even the hard of thinking should be able to work that one out...

the "supermajority" arguement demolished, and by a Remainer as well :-)

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/10/brexit-eu-referendum-alan-duncan-supermajority-requirement-vote

Hardly "demolished"! And it was actually a requirement of the bill that the government ignored.

Do read what you post darling!

2 in and 2 out doesn't work because of the single franchise bit. So what's the outcome in your history books?"

@LouiseCollins28
Short term outcome - the NI protocol, a reminder that actually, the single franchise bit was a heap of hooey and should never have occurred.

Long term outcome - the dissolution of the United Kingdom. The single franchise reminds Scotland and NI that their 'place' is always going to be 'last thing on Westminster's mind'.

So pfeffel had a 'secret' meeting with sue to ask for the report to be dropped.

Which means there was a 'secret' meeting with Cressida explaining that more fines for pfeffel would be seen as a political act by the met.

Next step - secret meeting with ? to nobble the NIP or at least get someone else to take the blame.

Corruption with this lot knows no bounds - think about the worst they can do - assume they have done it.

I know if I was one of the junior staff who had been fined and knew that my boss had got off scot free I would be absolutely livid about it.

Brexit means lower energy bills

NEW: Head of Ofgem says he will be writing to Rishi Sunak today to inform him the price cap is expected to be £2,800 in October, up from £1,971.