Brexit mega thread 7 : global Britain is looking rather insignificant.....

[ChiswickFlo]

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I think comparing EU membership to being invaded militarily by a foreign power is incredibly offensive, @LouiseCollins28 . You really ought to be ashamed of yourself for saying it. Or even thinking it.

the ones who are trying to determine their own future by potentially joining the EU, you mean? Good for them, if they think that works for them all power to them. See how this works?

Tone deaf, insensitive, and crass...

People either think national self determination is important or they don't. I cannot and I've little interest any longer in trying to convince anyone who doesn't share that view that they are wrong and I'm right

Self determination is vital, you'll get no argument from me on that (whether under our FPTP system we have that is another debate) but having lived in the UK whilst its been in the EEC/EU, i can honestly think of little that the EU forces us, against our collective will, to do.
As far as i can tell, the issues we blame the EU for are actually problems we could have solved ourselves but didn't.... e.g the issues we have in NHS, Education, Housing, Roads, Transport and Energy are all of our own making.

Parnall's viewpoint is that Brexit "can't work/won't work". Mine is that it has worked, we have left. He can express himself how he likes

A sign of maturity, is the ability to own and accept ones mistakes and not plough on regardless.... Brexit may have succeeded in that we have left the EU but usually in life, v important (and irreversible) decisions are done to improve a situation.
Just one example - Removing the opportunity for young people to (easily) work or study in EU, this will now return to being only for the rich.

Thats the issue with Brexit, unlike say electing a Tory, Lab or LD Govt, Brexit will be for decades, no Govt will offer another vote any time soon.

thanks Alexandra.
To respond to your arguement. In some ways I agree with the first point, yes far from eveything about those sorts of problems can be blamed on the EU while Britain was a member, though some things can, not being able to support domestic industries for example.

On your second point if I were to agree with you there I'd have to take the view that Brexit is a mistake and I'm afraid I don't. Indeed some of the things the EU has done since we've left or proposes to do in the future convince me that it wasn't a mistake but the right decision. An example below

www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1608077/eu-news-Ursula-von-der-Leyen-end-of-veto-powers-treaty-reforms-Brussels

The world doesn't allow of national self determination. You need give and take - it obviously helps if you're the 800lb gorilla equivalent but even then as both the US and Russia have found out - you can't tread on someone just because you're big.

Our pursuit of brexit and the way it was done has removed us from any ability to influence the EU - anyone who thinks we now have more ability to do what we want in the world is deluding themselves.

Majority voting? loss of some veto but not all.
How would the Govt function if all Tory MP's had to agree on everything first before a law/decision could be passed?

On argument given for leaving the EU is that its too slow, cumbersome, reactive... etc.
An example is the 7 years it took to get a FTA with Canada (ignoring the question of how long would it take for 28 countries to all have a FTA with Canada?)
Majority voting isn't a power grab (thats just an 'express headline) its essential in any organisation, not for everything in the EU and VDL isn't suggesting that at all.

On supporting industry, which ones haven't we backed, that would have been successful otherwise? We have supported sciences and tech, only to then allow them to be sold off, one in particular to a Chinese company.... other EU countries do not allow this... no foreign company ownership of VW or BioNtech, Germany has v recently locked in new vaxx production, no one else!

Look at the 60s and 70s and the vehicle industry, millions poured into to supporting bad vehicles & poor management, yet still the companies failed.

EU rules do allow some subsidies, we could discount energy to the steel sector as Germany does but WE chose not too, blaming the EU... taking me back to my original point....

I'm afraid that Brexit was solely to propel certain politicians into power, its proponents would have backed Remain just as vigorously had that been a quicker way.

It was also a Putin aim too, for that reason alone, Brexitiers should question their decision making again.

Using the response to Ukraine as a benefit of Brexit is a new low, even for Brexiters. Poland and surrounding countries threw their borders open. TheUK required Ukrainians to have visas and then made them difficult to obtain.

Seems the world is zigging as the UK zags.

Using the response to Ukraine as a benefit of Brexit is a new low, even for Brexiters.

They haven't even started yet.

People either think national self determination is important or they don't. I cannot and I've little interest any longer in trying to convince anyone who doesn't share that view that they are wrong and I'm right.
Parnall's viewpoint is that Brexit "can't work/won't work". Mine is that it has worked, we have left. He can express himself how he likes.

Tangible benefits, @LouiseCollins28?

And can you explain exactly what you mean by 'national self determination'? It strikes me as such a nebulous thing.

Bresxhit "benefits" being explained in vague, meaningless phrases?

Surely not...

I'm guessing here that you haven't said that to any Ukrainians you know recently? Sorry, it just isn't meaningless, well not to me anyway. Seriously, what further explanation do I need to provide?

First of all, if Russia invaded or attacked the UK, isn’t it a comfort that the UK is part of a defensive alliance with all those other nato countries that would come to our aid? Doesn’t Ukraine desperately wish it was part of that alliance that would’ve likely meant Russia did not attack it?

Second, any headline sentiment or claim is both contested and empty of meaning without some explanation of it. Some tangible or material expression or manifestation of an ideal concept is always needed to explain it. Like what is meant by ‘accountability’ or by what is meant by ‘power’. You are an intelligent woman, I don’t get why this you’d pretend that you don’t understand this.

The comparison of Ukraine and Brexit was made by Johnson and that didn’t go over well either. Especially not to the Ukrainians.

Anyhow. We know that you have not been personally affected by Brexit so can remain complacent with leaving. You won’t be alone in that. It does seem to be an aspect of human nature that personal experience is often needed to understand.

"Mine is that it has worked, we have left."

Reminds me of "Operation a success, but patient died."

Perfect!

Can you explain 'national self determination' in the context of trade agreements?

What do you believe trade agreements consist of?

I m guessing here that Louise thinks that any decision a country makes is "self determination"
So we left the EU = Self deter... Ukraine wants to join EU = SD...

My issue with this is that a: the decision was made a small minority of the population and didn't inc the the young who are disproportionately affected.
b: its (to all intents and purposes) irreversible, certainly 20 years plus.

The self inflicted damage Brexit has done to the NHS is remarkable and not reported on, all sectors have lost staff, not so easily replaced after CV, countries wont be quite so keen to let staff leave and others will seek to pull medical staff to their countries.

On "self determination" which seems to have got a lot of response here, some examples...to be fair whichever way these votes go they are an act of national self determination in my view. People should be allowed to chose what they want.

Ukraine putting itself foward to join the EU (if they do this) and people vote for it would be national self determination. the people of a country chosing their own future. That doesn't mean everyone in the country has to chose it. A majority of those who vote is totally fine.

Scotland chosing to become independed of the UK, or equally chosing to continue to be in the UK. Scotland becoming independent isn't something I want but I'm not scottish, nor do I live their so I don't get a say if it comes to it. I can vote for governments at the UK level which don't try and break up the country I live in but that's all I can do. Its up to Scottish people to choose.

Northern Ireland's people chosing to join the Republic of Ireland, or to stay as they are. Now this one is really interesting, as I understand it everything in NI requires "cross community" support so what if nationalists vote to join ROI and unionists vote not to? If the vote is to join the Republic that's the result would be my view on it though I don't think the outcome would be pretty.

The "the young are more affected" point I accept is true but would say each vote is of equal value. Also if there were no vote on remain/leave then our membership of the EU would have rested on the votes of people over 18 and who voted in 1975. Eventually all those people will die and still no chance to vote to remain/leave should be offered?

The British learnt in 1956 that 'national' self determination was a fiction.

Its a lesson that the brexit faction deliberately ignored. All that Louise has left is that fig leaf - I guess it doesn't really matter, we all delude ourselves about something.

The moment you enter into a relationship with another country or countries, you give up some of your self-determination. That's the nature of trade, politics and human interaction in general.

Unless of course you're a Brexiter Tory who believes that it's OK to break international agreements as and when it suits you, and that there should be no consequences for doing this because 'self-determination'.

Disaster charity drafted in to rescue lorry drivers stuck in post-Brexit queues
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/t-27028421

If self-determination meant a veto on major decisions - or even just QMV - within a union of equals, maybe Scotland wouldn't want to be leaving the not so United Kingdom.

At least within the EU, we'd get a say via at worst QMV and/or the veto

And, of course, the matter of a "simple" majority for major changes is, well, simple minded. As the referendum bill explicitly stated, any major constitutional change, or a change to people's rights, required a supermajority, something conveniently ignored by the Brexshiteers...

For this I'll ignore that the UK had a single franchise for the 2016 vote. So Scotland and Northern Ireland vote in while England and Wales vote out, what's the result in your history book. Who's popular will prevails? and how do you justify the enacted outcome?

I've no desire to influence the EU. I don't expect for one moment that UK influence on the EU is like when we were a member state, to think that would be absurd.

I would like it not being able to influence me but it seems that not only is that unrealistic but on here I get castigated for even wanting it. I want to be able to influence people I vote for/or against who are my representatives. If those people are in pan European super groups I can't do that.