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Brexit

Brexit mega thread part 6: Invasion and Evasion

981 replies

Opal8 · 24/02/2022 19:54

New thread

OP posts:
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27
Opal8 · 27/02/2022 22:26

Christ
Liz truss
Embarrassing

OP posts:
DuncinToffee · 27/02/2022 23:04

twitter.com/nazirafzal/status/1498061212201934854?t=QV2TNtj_TwwdGk_XaA1I2A&s=19
Govt have now defined “family”to exclude an adult’s parents, their brothers & sisters and pretty much everybody else that Boris Johnson, Patel, Sunak & Truss would call “family” if it was their own

Even with a nation’s goodwill they can’t even get this right

I despair

mathanxiety · 28/02/2022 03:54

"Those countries for the most part do not share the democratic traditions of the west (sometimes the western democratic traditions are pretty new-found and shaky themselves)."

"Democracies in Eastern Europe have functioned fine - as well as the British and other western democracies have,"

@Abra1d1- democracies can be functional without a long, steady history of adherence to democratic ideals and norms. However, they can be very vulnerable to siren calls of nationalism and other populist dog whistles. This can be seen in Hungary and Poland (but of course this is true of the UK too).

The temptation to go down that road may be stronger in some democracies than others. A lot depends on how backward facing the public discourse is. UK public discourse tends to be backward looking, and in times of stress the pendulum can swing that way in eastern Europe. There has been a resurgence of conservatism and nationalism in Hungary and Poland. Even Germany has felt the political impact of absorbing the DDR - it remains to be seen how robust its institutions can remain in the face of pressure from the Right.

mathanxiety · 28/02/2022 04:31

Or, is it more that you feel it ought to be acknowledged that the US and UK are not without some blame for the war on Ukraine? If it’s the latter, when the country asked to join NATO, the answer was ‘no’. So Putin did not have to declare open war on Ukraine a country with long roots of its own culture, language and people.

Ukraine joining NATO wasn't the only issue here. There is the question of the long history of the intertwining of Ukrainian and Russian history, with Ukraine a western province of the Russian Empire for centuries with a huge amount of cultural, linguistic, and political merging over those centuries.

The argument about long cultural roots, language, etc doesn't wash in the case of the Donbas and Russophone regions, as far as Russia is concerned. In the past decade, a policy of Ukrainisation has been conducted by the government, greatly diminishing the rights of Russian speakers (the majority in the Donbas) to use and enjoy their first language.

Look to the continued Westminster justification for the existence of Northern Ireland for parallels to Russia's logic here.

Peregrina · 28/02/2022 08:00

I was just looking at an old Historical Atlas (left over from my schooldays). It looks a complicated picture. It seems that Ukraine has been part of the Russian Empire for between 200 and 300 years, so in that time there would have been a lot of Russification of the area.

prettybird · 28/02/2022 08:08

Ireland was arguably the first part of the British "Empire" for centuries - but that didn't stop it defining itself as an independent country and becoming a functioning democracy Smile

Peregrina · 28/02/2022 08:18

Indeed so, prettybird - I think there are some parallels with the island of Ireland, which should help us understand the situation.

purplesequins · 28/02/2022 08:19

on russia: on another thread freezing assets of russian oligarchs was mentioned.
on what legal bases would that be?

prettybird · 28/02/2022 09:07

Ben Wallace trying to imply that "immediate family" of Ukrainians will be widened in the days to come.

So as usual, the Government and Home Office being dragged kicking and screaming to do the decent thing Angry - and expecting to be patted on the back for doing so Angry

DGRossetti · 28/02/2022 09:27

Ben Wallace on R4 this morning trying to claim we had to "wait for the EU" to see what to do about refugees.

MKL But we've left the EU. We can act for ourselves

What the fuck was the point of Brexit then ?

DuncinToffee · 28/02/2022 09:31

Well, temporary asylum to all Ukrainians up to three years it is then.

KevinTurvysGravy · 28/02/2022 09:37

I wonder if The Truss would defend and encourage Uk residents fighting with The Palestinians…another occupied state 🤔

DGRossetti · 28/02/2022 09:44

@KevinTurvysGravy

I wonder if The Truss would defend and encourage Uk residents fighting with The Palestinians…another occupied state 🤔
Presumably her "support" means they won't be sanctioned if on Universal Credit ?
Abra1d1 · 28/02/2022 10:29

@Peregrina

I was just looking at an old Historical Atlas (left over from my schooldays). It looks a complicated picture. It seems that Ukraine has been part of the Russian Empire for between 200 and 300 years, so in that time there would have been a lot of Russification of the area.
The western part of the Ukraine was Polish territory and before that part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire (Galicia). It's certainly not a straightforward country in terms of having fixed borders.
prettybird · 28/02/2022 11:15

Italy didn't become a single state until the late 19th century (and even arguably not until after WW1) Hmm: does that mean it's not a straightforward country in terms of having fixed borders? Confused

Abra1d1 · 28/02/2022 11:30

Italy doesn’t have Putin next door making excuses for invading.

Peregrina · 28/02/2022 11:36

And Germany didn't reunite until the middle of the 19th Century. Poland now is a post WW2 creation. I wasn't pointing any of this out to make a political point, just to say that what exactly constitutes Ukraine has changed over the years. As indeed what constitutes the UK has changed between when my parents were born and when I was born.

derxa · 28/02/2022 11:38

"In this war everything is real: Putin’s madness and cruelty, Ukrainian victims, bombs falling on Kyiv. Only your sanctions are pretended. Those EU governments, which blocked tough decisions (Germany, Hungary, Italy) have disgraced themselves.”

  • Donald Tusk (not proud of EU)
DuncinToffee · 28/02/2022 11:42

Things have changed considerably since Tusk said that.

AuldAlliance · 28/02/2022 11:44

derxa
Tusk was right.
3 days ago.

Nightlystroll · 28/02/2022 11:48

@DuncinToffee

Things have changed considerably since Tusk said that.
It changed probably because Tusk said that. They needed a kick up the bum to get moving.
DuncinToffee · 28/02/2022 11:55

If Tusk's comment sped up the process than good on him. Germany acted, UK is still discussing.

derxa · 28/02/2022 11:56

@DuncinToffee

Things have changed considerably since Tusk said that.
I get that. However this whole crisis shouldn't be made into some EU/UK point scoring exercise. People are dying and suffering and everyone needs to help Ukraine not squabble.
prettybird · 28/02/2022 11:59

The point I think that many of us are making (and probably agreeing with each other, just putting it different ways Wink) is that internationally recognised borders are just that: internationally recognised Confused. It doesn't matter when they were recognised - and it's absolutely not up to one country to unilaterally decide that another country either (or both) doesn't have the right to exist or that it doesn't agree with its internationally recognised borders. Angry

derxa · 28/02/2022 12:00

twitter.com/TomVickers7/status/1498029170391195648
anyway here's what a Ukrainian farmer did with a Russian tank