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Brexit
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Brexit mega thread part 6: Invasion and Evasion

981 replies

Opal8 · 24/02/2022 19:54

New thread

OP posts:
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27
mathanxiety · 27/02/2022 02:14

is extraordinarily...

mathanxiety · 27/02/2022 02:17

The expansion towards E Europe was encouraged by Major as a way of appeasing the right wing Tory agenda, by having a broader, looser EU rather than deepening ties with W European states.

It was done with the mischievous intention of countering the influence of France and Germany by introducing the conservative bloc consisting of Hungary and Poland into the mix.

Abra1d1 · 27/02/2022 07:58

Those countries for the most part do not share the democratic traditions of the west (sometimes the western democratic traditions are pretty new-found and shaky themselves).

Democracies in Eastern Europe have functioned fine - as well as the British and other western democracies have,

I’m slightly infused as to how both these statements can be true, math. I think you’re right vis a vis the first, with the exception of the Czech Republic, which functioned well as a democracy between the wars.

DrBlackbird · 27/02/2022 08:55

mathanxiety There’s absolutely no doubt that successive US (and UK) gov’ts have actively intervened in the world to further American (British) economic interests as much, if not more, as Russian govts. Often to the detriment of those countries and regions and the US (UK) has done so for at least since the 19th C. As such, the US and the UK are not exempt from interference in Eastern European affairs.

However, if forced to choose, I’d rather live in the US than Russia (and still choose to live in the UK) where more individual freedoms are just about still allowed. So whilst what you’re saying is true, the essential arguments here are:

  1. Regardless of other ££ behind Trump’s election, Russia also supported to it.
  2. Regardless of our own internal divisions, Russia also support Brexit.

Are you saying that you disagree with those arguments? Or, is it more that you feel it ought to be acknowledged that the US and UK are not without some blame for the war on Ukraine? If it’s the latter, when the country asked to join NATO, the answer was ‘no’. So Putin did not have to declare open war on Ukraine a country with long roots of its own culture, language and people.

Peregrina · 27/02/2022 09:13

But then as Freedland says, we are appalled by Putin's behaviour but gave him the green light. Not least allowing Russian money to slosh into London.

DGRossetti · 27/02/2022 09:42

I see BitCoin is being used to get money to Ukraine.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-60541942

...
Elliptic founder Tom Robinson told the BBC: "Whereas some crowdfunding and payments companies have refused to allow donations to be made to groups supporting the Ukrainian military, cryptocurrencies have emerged as a powerful alternative."
...

Maybe now some people can start to grasp why governments are sniffy about cryptocurrencies (I am always on high alert when "think of the children" is a reason for anything) ..

DrBlackbird · 27/02/2022 09:54

Yes agree Peregrina that money is an international language all its own and the Tories speak that language fluently. I’m not sure though that I wholly agree with the analogy of a ‘green light’ as in Putin Implicitly understood he could do as he wished and the West would stand idly by.

Whilst of course there’s western culpability, isn’t it more that they were just plain thick in not evaluating the risk of Putin and/or conveniently turning a blind eye hoping his transgressions would remain focused on Russian dissidents?

DuncinToffee · 27/02/2022 10:27

Just saw that deleted tweet from Kevin Foster that Ukrainians can come here as fruit pickers Angry

DuncinToffee · 27/02/2022 10:40

Meanwhile Truss is bleating on about domestic sacrifices.

DrBlackbird · 27/02/2022 10:46

[quote GaspodeWonderCat]Dominic Grieve not pulling his punches here:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/27/our-tolerance-of-russian-corruption-in-britain-fatally-clouded-our-judgment-ukraine[/quote]
Sounds like the intelligent Tories saw the risk that …he would repeat such an action if given a chance. Shame they were kicked out of the party.

AuldAlliance · 27/02/2022 10:47

And, as I posted elsewhere, Truss has been busy posing in a truly digusting photo-op

Abra1d1 · 27/02/2022 10:57

At least she’s not in her fur hat.

Sadly the likes of Grieve are no longer around. Jeremy Hunt is no fool, though he’s probably biding his time.

OrangeBlossomsinthesun · 27/02/2022 14:16

Putin has put Russian nuclear deterrent systems on high alert. The US ambassador to the UN "an unacceptable escalation".

OrangeBlossomsinthesun · 27/02/2022 14:17

Sorry, the ambassador called it "an unacceptable escalation"

DGRossetti · 27/02/2022 17:20

Strange times ... back to following good ol' Beau ...

twitter.com/BeauTFC

The Russian offensive didn't go well. They still don't have the air. Ukrainians stripping AGS-17s out of disabled Russian vehicles (machine gun but with grenades instead of bullets).

and

Russian oligarchs begin calling for peace.

Meanwhile that useless fuckwit Truss who appears to think this is some bizarre re-run of the Spanish Civil War has just said it's now OK for UK citizens to break UK law. Or did I imagine the passing of a bill that made it an offence to fight abroad ?

Peregrina · 27/02/2022 18:00

Meanwhile that useless fuckwit Truss who appears to think this is some bizarre re-run of the Spanish Civil War has just said it's now OK for UK citizens to break UK law.

Yes, and if they go and get captured by Russian Forces, will the UK Govt bother to try to get them out? No prizes for guessing the likely answer.

DGRossetti · 27/02/2022 19:19
prettybird · 27/02/2022 19:45

Posted this on the Trump thread but thought it was probably worth posting here....

According to db (his wife is Ukrainian with relatives in both Ukraine and Russia),
Russia doesn't have anything like the 'great wall of China' (ds has just completed his dissertation on the GFW and how "dissidents" still find means to communicate their protests) and it's relatively easy to circumvent internet restrictions via VPN's. If nothing else, apparently Russian people wouldn't see this as a restriction, more a challenge and easily overcome.

"Every hacker out there from Anonymous to Godknowswho are out to dismantle Putin's grip on the internet and far beyond, so..."

He's also pointed out that even if Twitter is shut down, many Ukrainians (like his wife) have relatives in Russia with whom they are in contact.

DuncinToffee · 27/02/2022 20:22

Improvement but still not good enough

BREAK: PM announces Ukrainian refugees can come to UK if they have family here.

Plus £40m more aid released to provide vital medical supplies and other help

Joe Pike

prettybird · 27/02/2022 20:23

FFS Angry

DGRossetti · 27/02/2022 20:51

Worth bearing in mind the EU core right of FOM was intended to prevent people being bottled up in a despotic regime.

Peregrina · 27/02/2022 20:54

Worth bearing in mind the EU core right of FOM was intended to prevent people being bottled up in a despotic regime.

I think people who have lived in countries which have been occupied in the past have a better understanding of this that people in the UK.

LouiseCollins28 · 27/02/2022 21:33

I thought it was because people didn't want capital to be able to move but people not to be able to move?