Brexit mega thread part 6: Invasion and Evasion

[Opal8]

New thread

It worked bornto, thanks.

That article solves my confusion as the tweet I got my link from quoted this part In early 2016, with the EU referendum approaching, Lebedev was present for the evening when Johnson invited Michael Gove to his Islington home and the pair, in the company of their wives, Marina and Sarah, decided to back Brexit. and I couldn't find it

If we had, the peole who negotiated it would have faced the challenge of convincing the voters who'd backed Brexit in the hope of major change, that the minimal change acheived by leaving the EUs political structures only still represented a credible outcome of "Leave". I'd say that would have been hard to sell.

I very much doubt it. Your point 1 applies, backed up with your further point that most people don't read Manifestos. The only people who would have been really annoyed would have been Farage and his cronies and the ERG.

But tell us Louise, what exactly did you vote for?

Dunkin that was the bit that really stood out for me! I think I already knew it but in the context of the rest of the article it’s really significant and quite horrifying.

Tumbleweed

Had there really ever been any doubt that De Pfeffle was in the Russians pocket?

His total reliance on Russia lover Cummings was telling...

It'll be the Saudis now

Follow the money...

@DuncinToffee

Follow the money...

Oh yes

@DuncinToffee

Follow the money...

That's all de Spaffle has ever done...

It’s all such bad news. Russia killing and destroying Ukraine into submission. Our useless lot whose only motive in life is constant self gratification in one form and another. Obviously partygate is off the agenda so Johnson has survived to lead us into another round of chumocracy. Yet neither are Starmer and Labour filling me with confidence. The US riven by internal political polarisation. Where are the political leaders this world so badly needs?!

@DrBlackbird

It’s all such bad news. Russia killing and destroying Ukraine into submission. Our useless lot whose only motive in life is constant self gratification in one form and another. Obviously partygate is off the agenda so Johnson has survived to lead us into another round of chumocracy. Yet neither are Starmer and Labour filling me with confidence. The US riven by internal political polarisation. Where are the political leaders this world so badly needs?!

Yeah. Very depressing.

@Peregrina

If we had, the peole who negotiated it would have faced the challenge of convincing the voters who'd backed Brexit in the hope of major change, that the minimal change acheived by leaving the EUs political structures only still represented a credible outcome of "Leave". I'd say that would have been hard to sell.

I very much doubt it. Your point 1 applies, backed up with your further point that most people don't read Manifestos. The only people who would have been really annoyed would have been Farage and his cronies and the ERG.

But tell us Louise, what exactly did you vote for?

As I've said any number of times on here, to leave the EU! or me that meant

Leave the EU's political structures
Remove as much EU law/legal influence as possible
Stop paying for as many EU programmes as possible
Restore our ability to make our own trade deals with other nations
Restore our ability to control our own borders

I'll grant you there are a variety of arrangements which we could have made with the EU that deliver on those things to a greater or lesser degree. I'd be happy with arrangements, I'd probably be unhappy with others. What we currently have I am (broadly) happy with.

What we have wasn't then and isn't now the only way to deliver Brexit, it probably isn't the best way either but we have left on those terms and I'm happy that we have.

Those are just soundbites Louise, even JRM has asked for more specifics.

Remove as much EU law/legal influence as possible

Does this include a) those EU laws which were promoted by the UK when a Member state, or did it passing into EU law automatically make it bad?
b) Does this include EU laws which ultimately come via other bodies like the WHO?

Restore our ability to make our own trade deals with other nations

Any old trade deal will do, even though it is expected to be deleterious to UK interests c.f. trade deals with NZ and Australia?

To me Louise's response, although honest, sounds like the worst piece of "I'm all right jack". I don't farm, so farming being wrecked doesn't affect me. I don't have young relatives who might want to study abroad so it doesn't affect me. I can't actually list any EU laws, but if they come from the EU they are bad by definition - even when the UK sponsored them. Some things like the Galileo programme and scientific research generally gave a lot of benefit to the UK - but OK the price of being out of the EU means that we sacrifice this benefit.

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Just for info...we've just received applications for mobility to the UK/Ireland for 2022-23.

My Anglophone studies dept is one of the biggest in France. We used to get over 100 applications for Erasmus mobility to the UK each year, of which around 85 were to the UK.

This year, 13 people have put a UK university as their first choice. Which means we will have to start closing the new post-Brexit exchanges with UK partners we negotiated, some of which are 30 years old, as we can't take in 100 students if we only send 13. The cost is far too high.

There is nothing but loss here. Loss of goodwill, of cultural and linguistic experience and openness, of possibilities and opportunities for young people and for research and teaching projects which feed off these agreements.

Zero gains.

Except for Ireland.

England’s difficulty is Ireland’s opportunity - never so true as now. And a completely self-inflicted difficulty at that.

Madness.

@Peregrina

Remove as much EU law/legal influence as possible

Does this include a) those EU laws which were promoted by the UK when a Member state, or did it passing into EU law automatically make it bad?
b) Does this include EU laws which ultimately come via other bodies like the WHO?

Restore our ability to make our own trade deals with other nations

Any old trade deal will do, even though it is expected to be deleterious to UK interests c.f. trade deals with NZ and Australia?

Yes, the EU having passed it automatically makes it bad, IMO. If it's worth having then it either should already be UK law or new law should be made to acheive a similar effect.

At least we are negotiating for ourselves on trade, not having someone do it who's job was to negotiate to suit interests largely other than ours in a trade negotiation.

@Peregrina

To me Louise's response, although honest, sounds like the worst piece of "I'm all right jack". I don't farm, so farming being wrecked doesn't affect me. I don't have young relatives who might want to study abroad so it doesn't affect me. I can't actually list any EU laws, but if they come from the EU they are bad by definition - even when the UK sponsored them. Some things like the Galileo programme and scientific research generally gave a lot of benefit to the UK - but OK the price of being out of the EU means that we sacrifice this benefit.

Since you know virtually nothing of my personal and family circumstances I'm impressed you could form so comprehensive a judgement

It's whose Louise not who's.

Perhaps your first point was correct.

Cutting off your nose to spite your face as a saying is childish but, in this case, correct.

Just reinforces my opinion that leavers were as thick as poop.

So Louise seems to be saying that we pass a law in the UK. The EU also thinks it a good idea and adopts it, whereupon it becomes a bad law, because it's an EU law.

As for trade deals - we were members - we were perfectly entitled to put people forward as trade negotiators. If we chose not to do so, that was our problem. It does mean that we forfeit the option of whinging that it isn't what we wanted. Except of course with the Brexiters in Parliament, it hasn't done so, they are still whining, about laws that they happily signed.

Since you know virtually nothing of my personal and family circumstances I'm impressed you could form so comprehensive a judgement

Indeed not, I only gave some examples. For all I know you might be an employer of dozens of staff and being saying how good it was that you could now rip up the working time directives.

Yes, the EU having passed it automatically makes it bad, IMO. If it's worth having then it either should already be UK law or new law should be made to acheive a similar effect.

So what you're also saying that if the EU passes a law the UK thinks would be worth having, it's better to go through all the hassle of getting it on the statute books than adopt it seamlessly because we (used to be) are in the EU? That logic is mind-blowing.

What also seems to be said is that a deal negotiated by the EU which benefits the UK, but also benefits France, Germany , Italy etc. is to be decried. Only those deals which only benefit the UK are good deals, even if in practice, they are totally bad deals - but sticking a union jack on them automatically makes them good?

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We have a Robin in our garden atm (along with a squirrel) who is an absolute dick...

I had no idea Robins were so territorial. He scares off birds mu ch bigger than himself, even corvids...little bully. Apparently this is well known but I was surprised. All this cutesy xmas cards have portrayed a very false image!!!

It's glorious here today...bright blue sky, no wind and warm. My thoughts once again turn to the besieged Ukranians in their bombed out cities. I'm sure a few shirt weeks ago they were looking at the blue during sky too 💙💛💙💛💙💛💙💛