Brexit mega thread part 6: Invasion and Evasion

[Opal8]

New thread

www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/03/the-ukraine-war-has-invalidated-brexit

@Peregrina

Tell me again about this "democratic" mandate... So why isn't Gove and Spaffle's behaviour regarded as treason?

Although the Brexiter argument will be that the mandate for the hard Brexit came from Johnson winning the 2019 election.

Got it in one.

Duncin from your link this paragraph stood out for me:

First, China and Russia have forged a strategic economic alliance. The declaration co-signed in Beijing on 4 February effectively declared an end to the “rules-based global order” designed in 1945. In its place, Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping have inaugurated an era of systemic conflict, where trade, information flows and access to raw materials will move along paths determined by an alliance of militarised dictatorships.

But I wonder how true that is now, with Putin apparently bogged down in Ukraine. China appears to be sitting on the sidelines.

But I suspect that Johnson for all his bombast and talk of being Global is secretly regretting not being part of the EU and not entitled to a seat at the table.

If only:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lib-dems-uk-eu-single-market-b2034013.html

A road map to rejoin the EU.
I might even vote LibDem again.

@Peregrina

Tell me again about this "democratic" mandate... So why isn't Gove and Spaffle's behaviour regarded as treason?

Although the Brexiter argument will be that the mandate for the hard Brexit came from Johnson winning the 2019 election.

You don't own goods bought with a dud cheque.

Property law 101.

.

Got it in one.

But it’s still pretty clear that many who voted for Johnson a) didn’t necessarily know or appreciate what a hard Brexit was really going to look like given the lies and obfuscation and ) were voting against JC. In any event, most were not voting for a hard Brexit given that most people voted for parties other than the Tories.

@DrBlackbird

Got it in one.

But it’s still pretty clear that many who voted for Johnson a) didn’t necessarily know or appreciate what a hard Brexit was really going to look like given the lies and obfuscation and ) were voting against JC. In any event, most were not voting for a hard Brexit given that most people voted for parties other than the Tories.

Great having an ability to detect sarcasm Did Johnson win the election? Yes he did. I actually agree in part, lots of people probably don't understand what Brexit would look like because of 2 things, 1, they pay so little attention to politics and current affairs and 2, little of it was in our control until we were out. Peoples votes have a value of 1 vote, whatever they know or don't know, think or don't think.

Peoples votes have a value of 1 vote, whatever they know or don't know, think or don't think.

Not with FPTP.

Article in the Sunday Times devastating, sorry I don’t have a link, but it seems that Johnson has been cultivated and played by Moscow for years via Lebedev - as many of us have speculated on here.

So louise, if your second point is correct, then how on earth can anyone say they knew what they were voting for?

It may have escaped Louise's attention that a general election is not a referendum - and that while under the UK's not fit for purpose FPTP voting system, while the current not fit for purpose government may have got a mandate to govern (I use the word loosely to describe the efficiency and effectiveness of what they do unless you define it as how well they line their own pockets and those of their cronies ), they did not win a majority of the vote

🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿

Unleaded now £0.09p per litre more than Monday...

Remember in 2000/2001 when there were nationwide protests at fuel going up to £0.80p per litre????

Where are they now?

I remember the outcry when it went up to £1 a gallon!!

Okay, after all this information on Lebedev coming to light and his Italian parties etc so when do we finally get to find out that Dom is actually a Russian mole after all and it is thanks to him that Brexit was achieved?

Louise are you sure that little of it was in our control until we were out? Wouldn’t you agree that were many many possible alternatives to the hardest of hard Brexits we ended up with that could’ve been negotiated between 2016 and 2020 including remaining in a custom’s union.

Totally agree Blackbird & prettybird I so so wish we were still at least in the customs union/single market🙁
Diesel here is 1.77

Once Johnson won the 2019 election people knew what sort of Brexit he was going for, and since he got a large majority, the answer from most people who put him in was 'Whatever'. This is despite ardent Brexiters are screaming now that being in the EU and coming out is the only thing that they ever cared for. So it's Louise's first point which applies - most people neither know nor care. If Johnson did a reverse, and he is about the only one who could, most people would still not care. It would just be the old relics in the Tory Party and Farage who care but they have had their chance, they have got their Brexit and they don't seem to like it.

@Peregrina

Once Johnson won the 2019 election people knew what sort of Brexit he was going for, and since he got a large majority, the answer from most people who put him in was 'Whatever'. This is despite ardent Brexiters are screaming now that being in the EU and coming out is the only thing that they ever cared for. So it's Louise's first point which applies - most people neither know nor care. If Johnson did a reverse, and he is about the only one who could, most people would still not care. It would just be the old relics in the Tory Party and Farage who care but they have had their chance, they have got their Brexit and they don't seem to like it.

This is what frustrates me so much, a big part of the electorate wouldn’t care or even notice just I dunno seems such a bloody waste & so much pain for no gain such an act of sheer wanton destruction.

@borntobequiet

Article in the Sunday Times devastating, sorry I don’t have a link, but it seems that Johnson has been cultivated and played by Moscow for years via Lebedev - as many of us have speculated on here.

Is it this one? www.thetimes.co.uk/article/10aa92a2-9cb7-11ec-84fe-a2a0efa555d1?shareToken=f728ae09e9315b07166c96699060b8a1

Boris Johnson’s Russian crony Evgeny Lebedev got peerage after spies dropped warning

Well De Pfeffle will soon be a Saudi puppet...

China appears to be sitting on the sidelines.

For now perhaps. Keep your eyes on Taiwan.

@Bonabee

So louise, if your second point is correct, then how on earth can anyone say they knew what they were voting for?

I can say I knew what I was voting for. Other people can speak for themselves.

Would you expect a voter to be able to show they'd read the manifestos of all the parties standing in their constituency before a general election? People know what they know, they don't know what they don't know. Voting isn't qualified by knowledge.

@DrBlackbird

Okay, after all this information on Lebedev coming to light and his Italian parties etc so when do we finally get to find out that Dom is actually a Russian mole after all and it is thanks to him that Brexit was achieved?

Louise are you sure that little of it was in our control until we were out? Wouldn’t you agree that were many many possible alternatives to the hardest of hard Brexits we ended up with that could’ve been negotiated between 2016 and 2020 including remaining in a custom’s union.

There were many several possibilities re the arrangments for how to leave the EU, sure I'd agree with that.

The hardest of hard Brexits would have been "no deal" surely? Not an outcome I was in favour of at the time and I said so repeatedly.

The Brexit we have is relatively "hard" I'd say in that we aren't in the EU customs union or the single market. We could have negotiated such an arrangement.

If we had, the peole who negotiated it would have faced the challenge of convincing the voters who'd backed Brexit in the hope of major change, that the minimal change acheived by leaving the EUs political structures only still represented a credible outcome of "Leave". I'd say that would have been hard to sell.

Dunkin it’s in today’s paper, but thanks -it’s a follow on from the one you linked.
Here but no share token, sorry. Or at least I don’t think it’ll work.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c52cf7cc-a1e1-11ec-a1de-983f3d5a1668?shareToken=2df8cbd057268c3d7ef5ae1036f90c04