Brexit mega thread part 6: Invasion and Evasion

[Opal8]

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One more thing I'll add without futher comment. If you want to thank the person who is responsible for Western Europe being free now, and enjoying that freedom for the last 75 years then the person you need to thank (if you can find one) is a very elderly Russian

But just to be clear on your meaning Louise are you a) pointing out that Russian forces were crucial to helping win WWII and b) you’re raising this point now as you see it relevant to what’s happening in Ukraine? As such, is the implication that the UK ought not to enact sanctions against Russia now? Because otherwise I’m struggling to see what argument it is that you’re making here.

"I am still feeling pretty good about Brexit "

What are the good things about Brexit that you admire Louise ?

The way I read that is that EU nations who overwelmingly won't spend enough to adequately defend their own citizens will, as soon as a cause celebre gains traction, start funnelling 500m Euros to defend the people of a country that isn't even a member state. I find that astonishing.

The borders of the EU are such that several EU member states are at direct risk from Putin's expansionist plans, about which there can be no doubt. They are protecting their citizens. Citizens who have living memories of exactly what Russia is capable of.

The suggestion that a country where people are sheltering in underground stations, cities are being flattened and maternity hospitals are being shelled is a cause célèbre is grotesque and shameful.

I hadn't seen John Lichfield's twitter thread, but I am thoroughly disgusted to find that I was right in thinking that the Patel/Johnson policy is to ensure that refugees can't come here.

The borders of the EU are such that several EU member states are at direct risk from Putin's expansionist plans, about which there can be no doubt. They are protecting their citizens. Citizens who have living memories of exactly what Russia is capable of.

It occurred to me that E Europe's fear of Czarist Russia/USSR/Russia is very different from that of the USA, which has been the leading force in NATO. The US has a theoretical fear of Communism, and once that collapsed the Trump/right wing tendency was very happy. Don't forget this is only one generation. Before the USSR came into being the USA wasn't in any sense a world player.

E European states have always had reason to fear Russia, going back centuries.

I don't know where exactly this thought takes me - other than that a NATO led by European countries would probably have armed itself differently. I suppose it wouldn't have been NATO either but ETO.

Peregrina I read fhat twitter thread just after your post and together it made it all so obvious

It's not true at all that E European states have had reason to fear Russia, going back centuries.

Hardly any E European states as we now know them existed a few centuries ago.

There were parcels of territory which were part of various different empires or ambitious kingdoms such as Austria-Hungary, Prussia, Lithuania - and even Sweden got in on the game.

Cities like current day L'viv have been known by several different names over the centuries, and populations have moved around, lock, stock and barrel as political fortunes waxed and waned and as their neighbours appeared with pitchforks and torches to speed them on their way. L'viv was a Polish city at the start of the last century, and known as Lwow. Before that it was Lemberg, the major city of Austrian Galicia. The countryside of the former Galicia is dotted with the ruined remains of Catholic churches and cemetries beating witness to the Polish Catholic - and Jewish - life that existed for centuries there.

In response to the devastation accompanying Napoleon and French secularism, republicanism, liberty, equality, and fraternity, Russia, Austria-Hungary, and Prussia formed the Holy Alliance around the time of the Congress of Vienna, which itself sought to produce a lasting settlement of European boundaries after the old European world had been destroyed by Napoleon. The French burned Moscow, and the Germans came close two centuries later.

Russia has been invaded several times over the centuries, disastrously, from east and west, and after each time has sought to make sure it will never happen again.

Martin Kimani gave a speech to the UN about a week ago on how the territorial lines of Kenya and almost every African country were drawn post WWII by the English and Europeans without attention to language or culture or history. Our borders were not of our own drawing, but today across the border of every single African country live our countrymen with whom we share deep bonds. Yet, he also said that at what point in history do you decide to ‘stop the clock’ for claims to land and all that can be done is to accept the sovereignty of the borders that exist today. Was quite a good speech.

mathanxiety - I more or less know that, having studied it for A level history (more than half a century ago now) and it was one long history of countries/territories fighting each other. And yes, I know that Russia has been invaded from East and West, and I suspect that is what is in Putin's mind. I don't think he wants a War with NATO.

The point I was trying to make, not very successfully perhaps, was that the American reason for starting NATO is nothing like the reasons that countries around Russia have for wanting to be in NATO. As far as I am aware Russia has never threatened the USA directly, but the USA did attack part of the USSR shortly after their revolution.

I recall a story which is funny in a way, and others not, about an old man who had lived in the house he was born in all his life, but had also lived in four countries.

Our borders were not of our own drawing, but today across the border of every single African country live our countrymen with whom we share deep bonds.

Erm, only to some extent is the answer here. So many problems in the world have been caused by the retreating Empires drawing lines on maps. Kashmir, Kurds, Rwanda, and much nearer to home N Ireland are all places which immediately spring to mind.

Not something I say often but math that was a great post, thank you.

I recall a story which is funny in a way, and others not, about an old man who had lived in the house he was born in all his life, but had also lived in four countries

There was an early "meme" (if you like) that one of the hallmarks of working in a dotcom company was that you had worked for 4 different companies without changing desks. (And indeed, twice I have changed companies but not desks myself ...)

So many problems in the world have been caused by the retreating Empires drawing lines on maps. Kashmir, Kurds, Rwanda, and much nearer to home N Ireland are all places which immediately spring to mind.

So much so that it's impossible to avoid the conclusion it was deliberate. Maybe a conscious "if we can't have it, nobody can^ sort of notion ?

That said the "end of Empire" was a rather forced and rushed affair. And it's not like it wasn't criticised as such at the time.

@DGRossetti

So many problems in the world have been caused by the retreating Empires drawing lines on maps. Kashmir, Kurds, Rwanda, and much nearer to home N Ireland are all places which immediately spring to mind.

So much so that it's impossible to avoid the conclusion it was deliberate. Maybe a conscious "if we can't have it, nobody can^ sort of notion ?

That said the "end of Empire" was a rather forced and rushed affair. And it's not like it wasn't criticised as such at the time.

💯

I'm going to drive past the petrol station just to see how much unleaded has gone up since yesterday....

@DrBlackbird

One more thing I'll add without futher comment. If you want to thank the person who is responsible for Western Europe being free now, and enjoying that freedom for the last 75 years then the person you need to thank (if you can find one) is a very elderly Russian

But just to be clear on your meaning Louise are you a) pointing out that Russian forces were crucial to helping win WWII and b) you’re raising this point now as you see it relevant to what’s happening in Ukraine? As such, is the implication that the UK ought not to enact sanctions against Russia now? Because otherwise I’m struggling to see what argument it is that you’re making here.

I wasn't really making an argument, the meaning i was going for was very much a) which is kind of why I said the without futher comment bit, apols if this was unclear.

In respect of Ukraine I think the UK govt and others world wide should abolutely be putting sanctions on Russia. I will admit to some tiredness with the "Russia bad" tone of some of the reporting I've seen here on UK media around this.

"Putin bad" is closer to the way I feel about it but that offers virtually nothing as an explanation of why this is happening or what he wants to acheive, few western journalists seem to be trying to understand this, which is a disappointment. There's some Ros Atkins stuff out there on video I've seen but little else.

So much so that it's impossible to avoid the conclusion it was deliberate. Maybe a conscious "if we can't have it, nobody can sort of notion ?^

In many cases not so much deliberate but showing a profound disrespect for the countries which had been colonised. My primary schooldays had a lot of Empire in them, with the subtext - look how we civilised the savages - nothing about any culture or learning they may have had for centuries before the Europeans came.

I digress from Brexit perhaps, but perhaps not, because it illustrates the mindset that the older generation would have been expected to imbibe. Now some of us were brought up to question, but many others were not.

"Putin bad" is closer to the way I feel about it but that offers virtually nothing as an explanation of why this is happening or what he wants to acheive, few western journalists seem to be trying to understand this, which is a disappointment. There's some Ros Atkins stuff out there on video I've seen but little else.

This is quite simply not true.
It's really not difficult to find a whole range of analyses from varying perspectives, published/broadcast before the invasion and since. And articles in many foreign languages can be run through DeepL for a fairly reliable translation (though it does depend on the source language, and there are glitches here and there).

@Peregrina

So much so that it's impossible to avoid the conclusion it was deliberate. Maybe a conscious "if we can't have it, nobody can sort of notion ?^

In many cases not so much deliberate but showing a profound disrespect for the countries which had been colonised. My primary schooldays had a lot of Empire in them, with the subtext - look how we civilised the savages - nothing about any culture or learning they may have had for centuries before the Europeans came.

Wasn't there a legend that a particular border had a bend in it where the person drawing it accidentally went over a fingertip holding the ruler ?

And the location of Kilimanjaro - a gift to the Queen Victoria from one of her offspring leading to a clear bump in the Tanzania/Kenya border

@AuldAlliance

"Putin bad" is closer to the way I feel about it but that offers virtually nothing as an explanation of why this is happening or what he wants to acheive, few western journalists seem to be trying to understand this, which is a disappointment. There's some Ros Atkins stuff out there on video I've seen but little else.

This is quite simply not true.
It's really not difficult to find a whole range of analyses from varying perspectives, published/broadcast before the invasion and since. And articles in many foreign languages can be run through DeepL for a fairly reliable translation (though it does depend on the source language, and there are glitches here and there).

Excuse me! If I want to criticise the output of our mass media I damn well will. Who, in the in the UK media is currently examining the Russian POV on this situation?

twitter.com/BBCRosAtkins/status/1497499806687580162

this 3 minutes is the BBCs best effort that I've seen, but it's presented by a British journalist, not a Russian one and his personal viewpoint of Putin's Russia is evident throughout.

🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿

Unleaded up another £0.02p per litre locally. Diesel more obviously.

So that's £0.04p per litre more since Tuesday...

How is the 'thank an old Russian' going?

And you can read, listen, watch Lavrov's press conference for a Russian POV, uncensored.

@ChiswickFlo

Unleaded up another £0.02p per litre locally. Diesel more obviously.

So that's £0.04p per litre more since Tuesday...

Unleaded down 15c here (Ireland) today as the government lowered excise at midnight.

Well, that's the theory anyway. I haven't been to a petrol station since last week so I have no idea what it costs. The joys of mainly working from home .

Energy company have just been out to do a meter reading...

Hmmmm