Brexit Megathread Part 3: COP26 and beyond. The Empire is no more.

[prettybird]

The old thread is nearly full so as COP26 is in my home town, I thought I'd start the next one.

I'm not expecting anything wonderful from COP26. The selfishness that is Brexit will extend to the rich nations - or rather corporations, countries and cronies - not wanting to do anything that might actually cost them money or hurt their profits and having made their money on the back of the resources of the poorer nations (in some cases quite literally ), they'll expect them to pay the price for the riches of the West.

The deliberate mistranslation of France's letter to the EU will distract from real issues - but that's ok for BJ as he can then blame the perfidious French.

Nothing changes.

90% of the Brexitiers i know are not big thinkers and tbh are easily led

One of my little brothers voted leave because of fishing rights, and when I reminded him that the Tories gave away our licences because they too wanted to get rid of the smaller fishing boats but refused to take part in the European scheme to match investments in new, larger boats he said 'oh, I didn't know that'. So for the sake of a minute or two on Google he made a decision which will leave him poorer. He's never been one for thinking though.

@Peregrina

I don't understand how the Brexiters have such hatred for anything to do with the EU. Even rules that the UK helped to make.

Or other non EU things, like the ECHR - drawn up mainly by British lawyers after the horror of WW2.

We were contributors, not beneficiaries, certainly not in financial terms.

Other things, people will value or not value on the basis of their experience. Free movement, ease of access to European destinations for holidays etc, utterly valueless for some people, very valuable to some others.

"Hatred" is a very strong word more "how fucking dare they tell us how to run our country" and the people who we elected to serve in EU institutions I'd say were overwelmingly serving the interests of the those institutions, not the people who sent them there.

At this point I think we've reached the stage where "European...anything" is like a red rag to a bull for some people. Honestly, I feel like that quite a lot of the time myself. "European medicines agency"; "European space agency", etc.

Why do you feel like that, Louise? Have you come to harm at the hands of either of these organisations? I'm genuinely curious.

"We were contributors, not beneficiaries, certainly not in financial terms."

This, as we can now see, is patent, unadulterated, bullshit.

We may have paid in more than we received in grants and investment, but the unrestricted, tariff free, paperwork free, access it gave us to a massive, rich, market on our doorstep - well, even some fucking idiots Brexshitteers are finally starting to realise what we've lost because of their xenophobia and stupidity.

It’s a peculiar ’you can’t tell me what to do’ knee jerk kind of response without understanding the role and responsibilities of different institutions. 🤷🏻‍♀️ Even though it always was but is becoming increasingly obvious that it massively benefited the UK to be in the EU. Benefits now lost.

Short answer, no I haven't. However, had we not left beforehand I'd very defintely have been at greater risk of harm due to the European agency's sloweness to license COVID-19 vaccines, delaying vaccine rollout.

More broadly, I do wonder why the EU needs a space agency, especially when some more visceral problems are so acute across the continent? I guess that's a bit like the "why are people giving money to India when they have a space programme?" argument.

IMO national level regulators and agencies are perfectly sufficient for most things. Government is a hopeless waste of people's hard earned money for the most part, and so often an ill influence in peoples lives. Yet agency after agency...more and more of the poison.

There are 38 such "operating" agencies of the EU I understand. I know how the small comfort of knowing that if European citizens want all of those agencies they are now paying for them, but soo many wasted years when I was!...and for some of them, I probably still am.

"We may have paid in more than we received in grants and investment" exactly my point Hanibal no more, no less.

There is a lot to disagree with in this article...but it gets some things right

www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/dec/04/why-trust-politicians-how-uk-voters-lost-faith-in-our-leaders

"lack of faith in those whom we elect" is a sentiment I feel strongly. I disagree this is a recent thing though. The 2021 article above doesn't express it nearly so well as 2013's effort from the same paper..."Rage is the dominant sentiment across just about every sub-stratum of the electorate"

www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/dec/26/fury-mps-not-voting-poll

More broadly, I do wonder why the EU needs a space agency, especially when some more visceral problems are so acute across the continent?

Narrow it down. Why does the UK need a space industry? Which it does have and has traditionally been very successful.

IMO national level regulators and agencies are perfectly sufficient for most things.

If this country were large enough to be self sufficient then that argument might work. We aren't however self -sufficient in food, (and haven't been for a long time either.) Therefore we have to import food. Are national standards good enough then, or would international ones be better? One of the big debates about Brexit has been how the Brexiters have been desperate for a trade deal with the USA, but their food standards are lower than ours. Many people are not happy with this - we have worked hard in this country to raise standards.

@ICouldHaveCheckedFirst

Why do you feel like that, Louise? Have you come to harm at the hands of either of these organisations? I'm genuinely curious.

The European space agency has done me great harm.

IMO national level regulators and agencies are perfectly sufficient for most things.(

I am an ignorant soul.
Could you give me some examples (no not vaccines unless you think not vaccinating children was a good idea) where the UK's national level regulators have diverged markedly from those of the EU since Brexit.

More broadly, I do wonder why the EU needs a space agency, especially when some more visceral problems are so acute across the continent?

This is such a hilarious "argument" that I can only believe it was written in jest.

I do wonder why [anybody] needs [anything but the bare bones of existence], especially when [any problem at all] are so acute?

We could try versions of this across MN and see how well they go down.

S&B: [humans][more than clothing made of torn sacks][global warming]

Food: [families][anything but bread and water][food poverty]

Property: [houses][floorboards][homelessness]

Christmas: [kids][more than one satsuma][pandemic]

Brexit: [TruBeLeavers][internet access to type hilarious arguments and inchoate rage at foreigners][the grown-ups are already struggling to solve grown-up problems]

@LouiseCollins28

the European Space Agency isn't an EU organisation, they are separate, which is why the UK is still in it.

On vaccine licencing, yes the EU took a more careful approach, yet deaths and infections across europe are all in the same ball park, so did early licencing make any difference (over time) at all?

Plus, it appears the RNA vaccines work far better than AZ, especially when given as a "Booster" perhaps even more so with Omicron.

Lack of confidence in our politicians, is as old as time its self, but is an unelected Lord Frost, a PM who tries to re write standards rules during a disciplinary hearing or billions handed out to fraudulent companies, so much better than an elected european parliament or an EU that takes a few years to get a FTA that benefits 27 countries?

We are a small country, that everyone from the US to China to Iran will ignore, we have little to no power, in the EU, we were part of the worlds richest and one of the most powerful trading blocks, with a host of faults but look what we have got now?

@Peregrina

More broadly, I do wonder why the EU needs a space agency, especially when some more visceral problems are so acute across the continent?

Narrow it down. Why does the UK need a space industry? Which it does have and has traditionally been very successful.

IMO national level regulators and agencies are perfectly sufficient for most things.

If this country were large enough to be self sufficient then that argument might work. We aren't however self -sufficient in food, (and haven't been for a long time either.) Therefore we have to import food. Are national standards good enough then, or would international ones be better? One of the big debates about Brexit has been how the Brexiters have been desperate for a trade deal with the USA, but their food standards are lower than ours. Many people are not happy with this - we have worked hard in this country to raise standards.

Why does the UK need a space industry? A very good question.

Yes, national standards are good enough, let all who wish to sell internationally put their goods (conforming to their own standards) into the marketplace and let the customers decide.

If people in enough numbers (as you suggest) aren't happy with a specific type of product or set of origin standards, then they won't buy it. On the other hand...I think they probably will buy it...then the arguement becomes, "why deny them the choice?"

Yes, national standards are good enough, let all who wish to sell internationally put their goods (conforming to their own standards) into the marketplace and let the customers decide

So what your saying is UK car producers should, for example - try and sell left hand drive cars into Europe or 240v appliances to the USA?

Yes i'm sure importer networks will be banging on UK companies doors - not, you also seem to have ignored the fact that other countries regulators would ban these products from even being imported, let alone offered for sale.

I can only assume you are having a joke at our expense.

sorry should say Right Hand Drive

Yes, national standards are good enough, let all who wish to sell internationally put their goods (conforming to their own standards) into the marketplace and let the customers decide.

Don't forget that trade works two ways.So consider imports too. Some years back the Chinese had a big scandal with poisoned infant formula. Would you want that to come into our market, and let people take pot luck?

I can only assume that Louise has had an attack of the Redwood's.
By this I mean something which is total nonsense when you stop to think. John Redwood was having a whinge about why France won't help us control our borders. Yet as a leading Brexiter he wanted to 'Take back control of our borders'. I know it must be hard for him to think this through, but if there is a border, then there is another side!

when you stop to think.

Seems to be out of fashion these days. You hear ludicrous propositions being made without any hint of two brain cells rubbing together to say "hang on this is bullshit"

@Octavia174

Yes, national standards are good enough, let all who wish to sell internationally put their goods (conforming to their own standards) into the marketplace and let the customers decide

So what your saying is UK car producers should, for example - try and sell left hand drive cars into Europe or 240v appliances to the USA?

Yes i'm sure importer networks will be banging on UK companies doors - not, you also seem to have ignored the fact that other countries regulators would ban these products from even being imported, let alone offered for sale.

I can only assume you are having a joke at our expense.

A fair cop. I was thinking mostly about food since I think that was the example in the post I was responding too. Yes, fairly obviously if you want to sell cars into an export market it's a good idea to have the steering wheel on the correct side of the vehicle.

TBH if the people across Europe want to have common standards it's no business of mine preventing them having what they want and they are perfectly entitled to that outcome.

What if the people of the UK want to have safe food standards, but don't have the knowledge/expertise/budget to navigate an unregulated food market and don't trust their politicians to introduce proper standards?

@LouiseCollins28 Yes its a bit early on sunday morning! lol

On food standards, having a floor, that 27 countries have agreed, make it hard/impossible for Govt's to lower them.

We can now allow in anything at all and whilst supermarkets may come under pressure to label or not even sell these foods, that wont be the same in hospitality/schools/prisons etc, where there are almost no labelling requirements & if its legal, then councils wont be interested.

This is one reason why the land border in NI/ROI is so problematic, EU doesn't want some of the foods we intend to import, coming to EU consumers.

Today I learned

www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/apr/23/climate-crisis-has-shifted-the-earths-axis-study-shows

which rather puts arguments about passport covers into perspective.

I fear fuck all amount of piffling around with windmills can counter even the tiniest shift in our orbit.

(Yesterday I learned there are such things as left handed roulette tables, for context ...)

This is one reason why the land border in NI/ROI is so problematic, EU doesn't want some of the foods we intend to import, coming to EU consumers.

To be fair the UK has a vested interest in it's own consumers not finding out either. That's part of the problem. You'll get sensation-seeking papers running stories about Ireland refusing to accept good decent UK food because it's allowed to have ratshit in it.

[quote Octavia174]@LouiseCollins28 Yes its a bit early on sunday morning! lol

On food standards, having a floor, that 27 countries have agreed, make it hard/impossible for Govt's to lower them.

We can now allow in anything at all and whilst supermarkets may come under pressure to label or not even sell these foods, that wont be the same in hospitality/schools/prisons etc, where there are almost no labelling requirements & if its legal, then councils wont be interested.

This is one reason why the land border in NI/ROI is so problematic, EU doesn't want some of the foods we intend to import, coming to EU consumers.[/quote]
thanks for your forbearance where I made myself look a bit of an idiot (some on here would say that's usually the case)

See this is the problem, I think. What the EU says is that it doesn't want 'lower quality' produce coming from outside the EU into it's market.

What I suggest the EU actually wants, is to protect EU producers, or more accurately to protect some EU producers, i.e. to protect them from competition.

At a national level, I think that's OK...I don't really like it, I'd rather that on food producers competed in an open market place and consumers had more choice.

However, national governments should be able to act to ensure food producers can operate, ideally to the level where the whole domestic population can be fed, but I understand that in the UK that's not been possible for many, many decades. National governments acting in the interests of their own producers and populations is fine, international actors doing the same is not IMO.

The agreed food standards are IMO nothing to do with consumer protection and everything to do with market protection. This idea that American foodstuffs, for example, are unsafe, do you really think the FDA is that negligent?