Brexit Megathread - Part 2 because it's not over by a long shot

[vera99]

Well getting to a 1000 posts didn't take too long so here we are.... everybody welcome!

The terrifying truth is that good folk are doing nothing. They're all keeping their heads down and hoping the randomizer of despair keeps pointing at someone else.

jgw1 I don't attribute it to lack of intelligence, that's is not my point at all.

My point is that most people, including me in 2016, had anything like enough education and understanding of the EU, it's origins and functions to understand what the vote could mean. And I studied the EU as part of one of my degree modules. So I DID know that the 3 indivisible freeedoms were never going to be split up by the EU in any deal,as it is the very founding principle of the EU. Clue in the name.

A binary referendum on such a complex issue was always beyond ridiculous and irresponsible though. And here we are

Speaking of Cummings;

twitter.com/SnellArthur/status/1448209831857381378

Public school Oxbridge graduate from landowner family married to castle-dwelling aristocrat calls out the elite.

Someone had to.

“Mummy, where’s Daddy?”

“I think he’s in the Tapestry Room railing against the elite.”

UltimateFoole Yy so many nails on the head feels as though we are indeed inexorably heading towards hell in a handcart and nothing will head it off.
JustAnotherPoster this keeps me awake at night, I was awarded DLA for life about six years ago, as I had a stroke due to an undiagnosed heart condition, it’s life limiting & has no cure the best I can hope for is a slow decline, now I’m on PIP they keep making me reapply well before the time awarded, it’s unbelievably stressful the process of form filling waiting for the decision etc makes me more unwell for weeks I think now more than ever I’m on borrowed time with this benefit.

The terrifying truth is that good folk are doing nothing.

Do you mean good folk in Parliament, or people generally DGR? The problem is knowing what we can do to be effective.

dontcallmelen - this sort of thing makes me really angry.

What also makes me angry is that people I regard as intelligent with a social conscience can come out with rubbish statements like benefits being too generous and why don't they work. People who don't know anyone who is on any sort of benefit, and are comfortably off themselves.

What do we do about it though?

"Lord" Frost he's dead behind those eyes I have worked closely with Ambassadors and they are usually refined, hyper-intelligent people who understand 4-dimensional diplomatic chess. Here's a man who has sold his soul for a devalued peerage and he knows it.

twitter.com/Sillyshib/status/1448335499110801416

And after all the bravado about offering 500 visas to lorry drivers, it appears that only 20 have actually been issued.

That'll sort everything out then...

Vittoria Gallagher

11h
The EU didn’t float #Brexit, hold a referendum on Brexit, implement Brexit, delay Brexit, and they’re not happy about Brexit. They asked us NOT to do Brexit, then gave us more time to fix Brexit, then accepted our Brexit, and mainly feel very sad about Brexit. Don’t blame the EU.

Sorry you have to go through that, dontcallmemelen, it is stressful enough being ill without being subjected to that at regular intervals. Me too Peregrina, I don't know what we can do about it. The benefits system should be a safety net for everyone, if we need it. The view used to be that you paid in and it was there if you needed it. That idea has changed over the years and helped various govenments erode the system, shooting most people in the foot in the process. How many people are really wealthy enough to not need a safety net?

David Allen Green's analysis of Frost's speech yesterday.

Note how he highlights the fact that Frost appears to think that Burke is his countryman. Either he did not realise that Burke was an Irishman, or did not realise that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland had not come into being. Either way, it would display a shocking lack of knowledge except now, this is what we have come to expect. And the Brexiters lap it up.

The terrifying truth is that good folk are doing nothing.

What are the options?
Blair showed how to get a centrist party elected in this country, that involved supping with murdoch and not frightening the monied. Its not clear that much has changed.

'good folk' bleating about Blair being a war criminal, Corbyn being a saint/hopeless, Starmer being too Blairist/against the left/monochrome simply means that pfeffel and cronies face a divided front - effortless win/win for them.

@peregrina - very perceptive hot take on his keynote. He looks like a haunted man now hoisted on the many petards of his own making and realising whilst he has been thrust into the front line whilst his master is hiding in his Marbella villa.

I love Maximillien Robespierre's YouTube commentaries here is his one on Frost's speech. We are seeing the Great Unravelling happening before our eyes.

Great call on James O'B of a good decent mainstream Tory who has realised that his party has become a Brexit cult. In a PR landscape this clusterfuck would never have happened and Clav and her mates could flap away in their toxic coffee mornings howling against the moon. The problem is they have invaded our realms and are stealing our destroying our country.

twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1447908412591906823

they have invaded our realms and are stealing our destroying our country

As a country I used to be proud of our unity, inclusiveness and humility. That’s all gone.

Now it’s division hatred and bullshit.

Blair showed how to get a centrist party elected in this country, that involved supping with murdoch and not frightening the monied. Its not clear that much has changed.

The political landscape of the late nighties was completely different, the population has shown a want for radical change the 2016 referendum and the 2017 Labour manifesto that cost the Tories a billion pound deal with the DUP, Starmers current popularity has dipped below Corbyns even though we were meant to see Labour bounce in the polls, Centrism is a fallacy in Britain right now the overton window has shifted so far rightward, due to the constant right wing bleatings of the majority of the print media, that we have a right wing populist as PM, with a status quo neo lib as leader of the opposition, asset stripping the UK while telling us hes just taking the family silver to get cleaned, Im starting to think the same of 'centrists' as I am of those that voted for Brexit

From the Robespierre clip I took the statement that trade between NI and the Republic is adapting and that between NI and GB is drying up - so the EU can afford to be pragmatic.

It also made me think that this will hasten Irish re-unification. It may be that the EU (and USA) has to underwrite much of the cost involved but I could see that happening. And in the way that Communism in E Europe teetered on the brink for we will say ten year or so then whoomph, I believe the same could happen in Ireland.

The only way the Overton window will move anywhere near left of centre is for three things to happen. Firstly populist socialist policies need to be shouted from the rooftops. Secondly, a charismatic, passionate leader, or group of leaders, need to sell these policies over and over and over, to the population. Thirdly, a mass market platform needs to endorse these policies, unequivocally. In effect, something akin to the second coming is what's needed and I don't see any glimmer of that happening.

I think a Labour Party that spelled out clearly what it would do in practical terms about Covid, Brexit, energy, the environment and health and social care, however centrist, and if it showed any sign of actually opposing Government rather than tacitly supporting current policy would be successful. But it doesn’t. I can’t think when I was last impressed by an opposition spokesperson. A few weeks ago there was some emergency (there are so many I can’t remember what it was) and a Labour bod was interviewed on Today (I think). What would Labour do? was the question. Said bod sounded flustered and mildly offended. Couldn’t possibly outline policy at this time. All they had to say was, We’re not in government but here are some options that could be considered, a, b, c. Instead they sounded as though they hadn’t given it a moment’s thought. Then of course there’s the problem with women and biology.
The Conservatives are self seeking, corrupt, incompetent, dishonest, callous and greedy. But these are all recognisable common and sometimes forgivable human traits that don’t always mean that government is wholly ineffective. However, being in thrall to a quasi-religious cult that actively denies material reality and twists language so that it has no meaning, or means the exact opposite of what people think it does, is another order of magnitude of crazy. That’s why Labour is getting nowhere.

@borntobequiet

Tbh I agree with Labour's approach just now, Starmer has a tricky repair job to do. He can't get derailed by giving the Tories a target.

If you look at detailed polling, Corbyn really battered their 'brand'. They still have a majority of voters who think they're 'not ready for government'. Labour won't be heard yet by the people who need to be listening.

But looking at local by-election results, things are slightly improved. One of Labour's key strengths is doorstep campaigning. They are doing loads around me.

Also a very old adage in politics is never interrupt while your opponent is making a mistake.

Anyway, that is my hope - that it is planned quiet. I might be kidding myself

As a country I used to be proud of our unity, inclusiveness and humility. That’s all gone.

Now it’s division hatred and bullshit.

Agree

I'll have some of what rrhuth is smoking - let them dig their own grave problem is they are shovelling lots of us into it as well. Sadly for uber Brexiteers the EU will not fall as Cumming's hoped for and the EU will be happy in due course to have a constructive and profitable relationship with us both ways however that is framed. I would favour a progressive coalition, electoral pacts on the ground and PR coming out of that alliance as a solution to never allowing a minority cult to take over the apparatus of state. If Keir has any sense (and he is full of that I'm sure) then time to start using it.

@rrhuth 'never interrupt while your opponent is making a mistake' - absolutely right!
There are a decent enough number of journalists, experts, and clear external evidence to demonstrate the issues and how the Govnmt are performing.

Quite rightly, the Labour Party would likely consider the electorate are just not ready to hear what they have to say at the current time. Am hoping they will move in to greater effect to push their approach to remedy, when the environment is more receptive.

I’m sure that people would be happy to hear what Labour had to say if they said anything different, definite, coherent or convincing. But they don’t, and I think it’s because they’re notable to.

Notable = not able