Westminstenders: The New Era

[RedToothBrush]

Scotland.
The GFA.
Its not Brexit Honest.
Levelling Up Shitholes caused by Tory austerity.
Babymilk Shortages
Cronyism

But we did good with covid jabs.

It looks as though we are repeating conversations from three or four days ago. We have already told yellowspanner that there was nothing stopping us making opportunities available to people of all countries, not just the EU.

The answer hasn't changed, it was the Westminster Government which decided to limit the opportunities to the rest of the world.

BeLeavers don't tend to like reality much.

Brexit has already benefitted the UK in my opinion. We are no longer tied to the ECJ, which despite what is usually written here, does not only deal with trade. That is a big benefit for me.

You still have not identified a non-trade area over which the ECJ had jurusdiction and whose loss you claim as a benefit. (Those identified earlier were areas we had explicitly asked to opt in.)

If it helps protocol 21 explains the areas where the UK opted out of ECJ jurisdiction at accession.

Yep Peregrina, Yellow can't actually articulate any way in which we actually have benefitted, so just keeps repeating the tired old, disproven, mantra of the ECJ and points based system.

Messrs Dunning and Kruger must be laughing their heads off...

If the Government did change its rules and open up to all comers, then Tim Martin would be delighted. He could press some of them into service in his pubs.

It is not often that I find myself agreeing with Boris Johnson. It's just that my views on the so called Special Relationship differ from his. It belongs to WW2 and should be buried now.

@yellowspanner

Jason118,* I disagree. Brexit has already benefitted the UK in my opinion. We are no longer tied to the ECJ, which despite what is usually written here, does not only deal with trade. That is a big benefit for me.
We can have a points based immigration system so that opportunities are available equally to people from many countries not just those within the EU. Again major benefit.*

Wrong, they are features of our new position, not benefits. We derive no benefit from removing ourselves from ECJ oversight (as current trade deals with the EU still has them). Our points based immigration system could have been equalled out while still in the EU, so again, it's a feature and not a benefit. Easy to be confused when you're looking for things that don't exist.

@yellowspanner

Jason118, I disagree. Brexit has already benefitted the UK in my opinion. We are no longer tied to the ECJ, which despite what is usually written here, does not only deal with trade. That is a big benefit for me. We can have a points based immigration system so that opportunities are available equally to people from many countries not just those within the EU. Again major benefit.

When do you intend to back up your argument on the ECJ? it would be polite of you to do so, its what you normally do in a conversation - engage?

Post CV what will attract workers to the UK on short term work visas ?

What i mean is, Australia - weather - high wages, Canada high wages and benefits... for EU workers, they can go and work in other EU countries with little restriction etc.

Will an Italian nurse want to work in the UK? we already know a certain NZ nurse no longer sees the NHS as fit for purpose.

We are offering relatively low wages, pay taxes and NI and don't get any benefits, he/she can work in anywhere in EU and not face these obstacles.
Plus for the many jobs we either don't or can't do, there is now no longer an easy immigration route to the UK as wages are too low to qualify.

But of course the thing on immigration you have still not answered (among others) is how do we send back to the EU all those migrants who pour across the channel each and every day.......

Jason118
Here's the BBC report:
Which countries will recover fastest from the pandemic?

UltimateFoole
That article quotes the OECD as saying that the UK is "..still by some distance on course for the biggest hit in the G7..." That's compared to where we were predicted to be before Covid.

You were both looking at a BBC news article from early March.

Here is the relevant BBC report;
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57306596

The UK economy's recovery from the pandemic is set to be stronger than previously thought, a leading international agency has suggested.

The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development says the UK is likely to grow 7.2% in 2021, up from its March projection of 5.1%...

The OECD report gives a flavour of how countries are performing over the course of the health crisis by setting out how long it expects them to take to get back to pre-pandemic levels of economic activity (GDP) per capita. For the UK, it's the middle of next year, along with Italy and Canada.

That's a few months ahead of France and Spain but behind the US, Japan and Germany...

A points based system is fairer and treats people of all nationalities the same. When we were in the EU we had freedom of movement of EU nationals only. People from Asia or Africa were under different less favourable rules. That was unfair. The change is a benefit as far as I am concerned. I don't have to argue or discuss. To me, it is a fact. An unfairness has been removed.

As to the ECJ. It has no business, as an organisation, being the final court of justice for the UK.
I don't see how I can be clearer.

JasJas, I have answered your point about immigrants who cross the channel. Refugees should be welcomed. Economic migrants deported to their country of origin. Again, not sure how I can make this clearer.

Jason, I disagree.
Ending free movement for a particular group of people and making the process equal for all is a definite benefit in my mind. Yes, it is a feature. But it is also a benefit.

Jason, we could not have equalled our immigration system while we were locked into free movement unless we offered free movement to the whole world and that is unrealistic.
Free movement of people is one of the 4 freedoms of the EU and we could not change the system without leaving.
Now people from all countries can apply to work here and the rules are the same for France as they are for Asian and African countries.

The new Brexitannian Rulez are so sensually enjoyable for BeLeavers because they do indeed treat all Foreigners "the Same" - namely, that said Foreigners are now all never allowed to forget that they are in our Sceptred Isle on sufferance and must always be gratefully obsequious to their Noble Hosts.

It was perfectly possible to offer freedom of movement to the whole world. It's presumptuous to assume that the whole world would want to come. FoM was freedom of labour - it was perfectly possible to make people leave after three months if they had not got work, as indeed other EU countries did. The UK chose not to.

Interesting lead on France2TV tonight;

"France attracts more foreign investment than any other country in Europe beating the UK (and Germany) for second year running"

How on earth can they possibly manage that whilst still being in the EU? [shrug]

FoM was freedom of labour - it was perfectly possible to make people leave after three months if they had not got work, as indeed other EU countries did. The UK chose not to.

And this is the bit the Brexiteers never seem to want to address. How many more times do we have to say it - it's freedom of labour, not the freedom to go anywhere you want and not contribute. Not the EU's problem that the UK chose not to implement it properly.

Free movement of people is one of the 4 freedoms of the EU and we could not change the system without leaving.

Until we sign up to all those trade deals that include some form of freedom of movement (and they will) in which case it will just be a different set of people who are advantaged.
Not to mention all the UK citizens previously settled in EU countries who are seriously disadvantaged - can’t access bank accounts, lost their jobs, have to pay extra for private medical insurance etc etc.
And thank you once again for telling us what we already know. It’s kind of you.

It doesn't matter how often @yellowspanner repeats the features of our new position. They are not benefits, not even if you believe they are. Your belief doesn't make things a reality (see also religion). It's a similar kind of delusion, belief and feelings trump facts and reality. Brexit was enacted to benefit the whole of the UK; it doesn't matter if a single person believes there are benefits based on the features they now espouse. They are still features only, and belief in benefits derived for one subject of the realm, does not fulfil the responsibility of Brexit to bring benefits (as sold) to the whole of the UK.

jasjas1973
Their current practice test asks "Who is Queen Elizabeth married too?

Whose practice tests are you referring to? lifeintheuktests.co.uk?

no longer being able to deport migrants to the first EU country they arrived at

The Dublin III Regulation was 'all show and no substance' for the UK according to these stats - Commons Library 2019;

According to Home Office figures, between 2015 and 2018, 7,365 incoming requests were made to transfer people into the UK under the Dublin regulation, from which 2,365 people were transferred to the UK (some requests may still be pending).

This means that the UK accepted around 33% of requests.

During the same period, the UK made 18,953 outgoing requests to transfer people to other Member States, from which 1,395 people were transferred abroad.

This amounts to around 7% of outgoing requests by the UK resulting in a transfer.

In 2018, the UK received a total of 37,453 asylum applications, and made 5,510 outgoing transfer requests under Dublin III.

Of these 5,510 requests, 209 migrants were transferred out of the UK under Dublin III, whilst 1,215 came in, making the UK a net recipient in 2018.

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/what-is-the-dublin-iii-regulation-will-it-be-affected-by-brexit/

I'm assuming that we might refuse requests in return in future? From October this year, the UK will no longer accept EU ID cards at the border - this will clearly block one avenue into the UK - non-EU migrants illegally entering the country with forged EU ID cards.

You would never guess that when we were in the EU we had a say in making the rules, could suggest them, vote on them, veto some of them, or not implement some. No not at all.

Not sure why Clavinova thinks that people who forge ID cards are also not up to forging passports.

As EU citizens only have digital proof of their right to remain, rather than the physical proof that was requested but the Government refused, and residence documents are invalid after 30 th June, one can only imagine the cock ups that will undoubtedly occur.

DuncinToffee
Not sure if migrants will be in a hurry to come here
Several years ago the govt opened a scheme for highly skilled migrants to settle in the UK. Today, many we’ve spoken to tell us they wish they’d never made the trip having been subject to what they say is unfair treatment by the Home Office...

There is a Home Office Response in that twitter feed:

Home Office response: “To equate these cases to Windrush is wrong and inflammatory. In 2019, the court ruled our use of these immigration rules was appropriate and we were justified to expect a full and convincing explanation about glaring discrepancies between..."

"...their visa applications and their tax records."

“Our review found 88% of those refused under 322(5) claimed in their visa applications their earnings were more than £10,000 a year higher than was shown by their tax records..."

"The average was £27,600 so it is wrong to claim these are small mistakes in tax records."

“The majority of the cases have either been concluded or are being actively reconsidered. We are working to resolve these outstanding cases fairly and as quickly as possible..."

"Those awaiting the outcome of their application are not destitute, they have been granted permission to study or work while their cases are reconsidered.”

Not sure why Clavinova thinks that people who forge ID cards are also not up to forging passports.

We’ll get a better class of illegals though, as passports (presumably) cost more.

Just seen this;

CPTPP nations have today (Wednesday 2 June) agreed to the UK’s bid to begin the accession process to join the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP).

The UK will continue to work closely with Japan, as this year’s chair of the CPTPP commission, alongside the other CPTPP nations to progress negotiations as quickly as possible. ...

CPTPP is a trade agreement between 11 countries (Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore and Vietnam), covering 500 million people.

www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-welcomes-cptpp-nations-invitation-to-begin-accession