Anyone changed their minds

[Baileysforchristmas]

From being a remainer to a Brexiteer on here?

@peregrina,

'Most of what Clavinova cut n' pastes is potential - we need information by actual.'

Who is 'we' and what precisely do you 'need' it for?

@TheReluctantPhoenix

We get the point. You have no solutions to the problems you caused. It’s fine, no Brexiters do. The solution in the long term will be rejoining the SM and CU but that will take some time.

No, and while I don't think the EU is covering itself in glory over vaccines, anyone who thinks it's proving Brexit was a good idea is missing the very important point that the EU couldn't get in the way of exports to us if we were in the bloody EU.

We is anyone who takes an interest in what the facts are. As the saying goes ' a Bird in the hand is worth two in the bush', i.e. if jobs lost are reported it would be good to hear about ones which have been created, not the ones which might be created some time in the future, which may not happen.

Why do 'we' need it, because we care about the country we live in and want it to prosper. Some of you think Brexit will make it prosper, I don't, but you are at perfect liberty to disagree.

@TheReluctantPhoenix

See, laundry lists of problems are easy to make.

Oh look, a squirrel. 🐿

The list of problems I presented you with, you have personally created within your own country by your own vote.

Apparently without any thought as to the solutions.

@TatianaBis,

'We get the point. You have no solutions to the problems you caused.'

How many people on the internet could really 'solve' any economic problem by themselves in a matter of minutes? Solutions are found by teams of experts and it takes years. This banging of the gavel and shouting 'what is your solution to this' and 'what is your solution to that' is playground politics.

Of course, in the unlikely event that someone here postulated realistic solutions to your 'problems', you would be far from thrilled. In fact you would forever be picking at them and hoping that they were unworkeable.

It would help if you admitted that, certainly in the short term, economic disaster has been avoided. I remember these threads after the first vote when people started hoarding food and claiming that Sterling would collapse another 20% in short order. In reality, Sterling has rallied since Brexit happened and the stock market is higher than at Brexit (it was always a terrible indicator, incidentally, but that did not stop ardent remainers shouting about it).

You are making a huge assumption on which way I voted and what I believe.

The fact that I keep an open mind and I do not believe it to be a total disaster does not imply that I think everything about Brexit is wonderful. Unlike you, I suspect, I would actually like things to work out and go well for the UK and I can at least imagine scenarios under which this might happen. You (again I don't know but strongly suspect) would adore the schadenfreude of it being a complete disaster.

I voted to leave and I haven’t changed my mind (first time I’ve admitted it on here though)

I'm too busy laughing at the fishermen being massively bitten on the arse to think about it tbh

*@TatianaBis So you have apparently shifted position based, purely on the behaviour of people, not on the issues of Brexit itself and whether it will work politically and economically for the UK.

(This is why a referendum was a terrible idea because some people based their vote on random, superficial, emotional factors).*

No that's not what I said at all. I summarized some of the touchpoints that nudged me along with 3-4 years of political debate and discussion like many others.

Another aspect of this debate (the indyref debate in Scotland is the same) is the propensity of people to belittle and demean others for having different views and to assume they haven't reached those views 'properly'. And I am afraid that those on the remain side have been particularly guilty of this.

I do agree with you that referendums are a truly terrible way to make decisions.

It would help if you admitted that, certainly in the short term, economic disaster has been avoided.

I haven’t because it’s untrue unless you’re referring to No Deal. That you believe disaster has been avoided merely shows the extent of your ignorance and avoidance of newspapers. The tank in Sterling has already happened. The economic argument for Brexit has long been embarrassed into silence: the usual line now is economic pain for sovereignty.

All this wriggling trying to avoid addressing the problems Brexit has caused: if a vote causes serious problems that voters have no answer to, they may have reflected that the problems are in fact insoluble thus voting for them unwise.

I’ve no idea how you voted but people who patter out the standard myths about the collapse of the EU are generally Brexiters. If you aren’t, you only have yourself to blame.

Anyway, your arguments are not worth wasting further time on.

God no.

No that's not what I said at all. I summarized some of the touchpoints that nudged me along with 3-4 years of political debate and discussion like many others.

The touchpoints, as I said, were based on the behaviour of other people rather than the political and economic issues of Brexit itself.

Yesterday's paper reported that 67,000 retail jobs had been lost. Some will be due to Covid having forced shops to close and people switching to on-line shopping, so it accelerated a trend which was happening anyway. But those people who have lost their jobs and can't find another aren't going to think that it's not an economic disaster for them. Similarly exports to the EU were reported to have declined by 40% in January. For those involved that does not sound like an economic success.

Brexit voting fishermen were not happy in January. Why not? It doesn't sound as though Brexit was a success for them.

Northern Ireland - not a success - a real problem for their economy with the threat of violence breaking out again. That doesn't sound like a success in anyone's terms.

The behaviour of other people rather than the political and economic issues of Brexit itself

The behaviour of the Parliamentary Remainers is intrinsically linked to the political and economic issues of Brexit itself. One example of which is the failure of the those Remainers to engage in trying to get the best deal possible and instead concentrate their efforts into trying to thwart Brexit itself.

And again - these were nudge points alongside years of political debate and discussion.

As I have already said, May's Withdrawal agreement was better, but Johnson voted down. How anyone can pass that off as a Remainer thwarting brexit is beyond me. Anyway you have got your Brexit - at least some of the voters who wanted it think it was a crap deal, so why are you upset?

Why are we who did vote Remain still going on - Farage and the ERG never shut up, so why should we?

@TatianaBis,

The concept of ‘wasting time’ assumes that your time has value.

And this might be worth a read for you (and others referring to the catastrophic export drop).

fullfact.org/economy/eu-exports-january-2021/

The behaviour of Remainers and Brexiters is not intrinsically linked to the political and economic issues of Brexit, no. They can be linked if you wish.

In which cause it’s interesting you focused on Remainer behaviour rather than the disreputable behaviour of Brexit ringleaders such as Farage and Aaron Banks; the xenophobia of the Leave campaign and resultant rise in racist and xenophobic behaviour of Brexiters; the appalling nationalist political posturing of the Tory hard right; the political and social incompetence of May; the political incompetence, lies and u-turns of Boris etc.

BBC Source for my figures.

UK goods exports to the European Union fell 40.7% in January, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS), while imports tumbled 28.8%.

Pretty reliable I would say. What is missing is the information on compensating exports to the rest of the world. One of the commentators states that they increased by 1.7% - that's not exactly compensation, is it?

Now what was that about 'Easiest deals in history, we hold all the cards'?

Ginty
One example of which is the failure of the those Remainers to engage in trying to get the best deal possible and instead concentrate their efforts into trying to thwart Brexit itself.
What would have been in your ideal Brexit deal?

All this wriggling trying to avoid addressing the problems Brexit has caused: if a vote causes serious problems that voters have no answer to, they may have reflected that the problems are in fact insoluble thus voting for them unwise

This with bells on. Problems added on top of the problems austerity caused. It’s like giving a runner a backpack of bricks, and expecting them to get a better time.

As a country, we will come out of this worse imo. The jingoism and flag wrapping is a distraction to that. A defection.

How that squares with being a ‘patriot’ I don’t know.

Nope.

It has value to me whereas your views have none.

The general export drop is not based on the figures quoted in the Observer back in February.

Those were simply figures from the RHA based on freight flows across the borders. Which the Cabinet Office denied but the chief executive of BPA [British Ports Association] corroborated.

Full Fact is simply quoting the Cabinet Office.

HTH.

Most of us in Scotland have absolutely no idea how anyone could seriously believe that brexit was ever a good idea, or that the referendum was legitimate and worthy of being acted on.

We plan to rejoin the EU as soon as possible.

@Peregrina,

Did you bother to read the full fact link I posted?

‘Trade has not been typical in recent months and, because of the practical challenges and temporary factors outlined in Section 3, we would encourage users to apply caution when making short-term comparisons of trade movements’

This is included within the ONS report which the BBC quoted, in bold letters and an ‘!’.

Section 3 outlines the impact of stockpiling in November and December and the new lockdown.

But this is all included in the ‘full fact’ analysis that I linked do, had you bothered to read it.

@Peregrina

BBC Source for my figures.

UK goods exports to the European Union fell 40.7% in January, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS), while imports tumbled 28.8%.

Pretty reliable I would say. What is missing is the information on compensating exports to the rest of the world. One of the commentators states that they increased by 1.7% - that's not exactly compensation, is it?

Now what was that about 'Easiest deals in history, we hold all the cards'?

HMRC figures supports the ONS figures.

Food and Drink Federation (FDF) figures show that cheese exports in January fell from £45m to £7m. Whisky exports fell from £105m to £40m. Chocolate exports fell £41.4m to just £13m, a decline of 68%.

Exports of other foods such as salmon and beef fell by 98% and 92% respectively. By value they were the 7th and 4th biggest losers out of the top 10 exports to the EU.

Cause: combination of Brexit and Covid.