Anyone changed their minds

[Baileysforchristmas]

From being a remainer to a Brexiteer on here?

@TatianaBis,

And meanwhile in the car industry...

‘BRUSSELS—The COVID-19 pandemic has sparked the biggest decline in car production in Europe on record, according to data published last week by the European Automobile Manufacturers Association (ACAE). The ACAE says new car registrations across the European Union fell by 23.7 percent in 2020, the biggest year-on-year decline since the organization began collecting data....’

www.assemblymag.com/articles/96100-covid-19-sparks-biggest-decline-in-car-sales-in-eu

Hardly a surprise that car production collapsed when people were told to stay at home. But, hey, anything to claim that the U.K. is in the throes of a collapse.

Care to comment why U.K. PMIs, both manufacturing and services, are considerably higher than in the Eurozone?

PMIs are considered the most reliable indicator of future economic activity.

So you missed the section quoted from my post, specifically relating to Brexit?

And you do understand the difference going forward between the impact on JIT supply chains & sourcing of components caused by loss of SM + CU and the fall in demand due to Covid?

@TatianaBis,

The car industry will definitely suffer due to Brexit, but that was not the thrust of the article. It was mentioned in the last sentence.

Meanwhile, back to those pesky PMIs, which you seem less enthused about discussing. Why on earth would purchasing managers in a dead country, stumbling into an ignominious future be more optimistic than purchasing managers in the glorious EU powering its way into the future?

Maybe I am just too stupid to see it....

I have been gradually moving from remain to brexit over the past few years.

I was first nudged along because I found the inability of remainers to accept the democratic result of the referendum really troubled me.

I was then disappointed that the remainers in parliament continued to try to overturn the decision instead of concentrating on working towards the best deal.

But I am now committed to brexit because the behavioor of the EU over vaccines has been appalling and because the EU has failed their citizens by their shit show of a vaccine programme.

But we haven't spent 40 odd years as part of a union with India, paying in millions a week, accepting laws made by them, shared courts etc etc.

Er no, they spent a century being part of the British Empire and were before that dictated to by the East India Company until the said company messed up big time. So your comments about 'accepting laws by them' would be true in the case of India. It's only true in the UK in so far as UK Governments couldn't be arsed to be involved. But the Single Market was Maggie Thatcher's idea, and a number of EU laws were proposed by the UK. But my God, you would never believe that from the clap trap that the Brexiters spout.

Yes, we ought to be interested in what India is doing on the grounds that a) a lot of our vaccines are coming from them and b) we big up the Commonwealth when it suits. We might also add c) why is a still wealthy first world country like ourselves taking vaccines from a still poorer country like India - is their need not greater than ours?

The thrust of the article was the combined impact of Brexit & Covid. The last paragraph of my quote related to Brexit, so I could not be accused of quoting out of context.

Let's have this discussion in 5 years when the consequences will be more clear to you. Discussing what is about to happen with Brexiters just leads to denials. After the fact it's not possible to deny it. You have 5-10 years to discover why Brexit was a bad idea.

I was first nudged along because I found the inability of remainers to accept the democratic result of the referendum really troubled me.

But we have Brexit now, so how is that the inability of Remainers to accept a democratic result? When Johnson won his Brexit mandate in December 2019, no Remainers went and stormed the Houses of Parliament denying the legitimacy of the result, in the way that Trump supports tried to deny the democratic result of a Presidential election. You saw pictures of a rioter sitting in Nancy Pelosi's office - there is no occasion when Remainers stormed the House of Commons and sat in the Speakers chair and ripped up files.

I was then disappointed that the remainers in parliament continued to try to overturn the decision instead of concentrating on working towards the best deal.

It can easily be argued that the Withdrawal Agreement which Theresa May proposed would have kept the whole of the UK within the customs union, thus avoiding the very real problems experienced now in N Ireland. I recall that Boris Johnson and the ERG voted down her deal. The last thing that you can call him is a Remainer.

Now that you are committed to Brexit, which is what we have, how exactly are you going to demonstrate your commitment? Are you going to be looking for business opportunities that weren't available before?

@TatianaBis,

Well why keep discussing it here then? Let’s just wait 5-10 years and see.

If you post an entire article based about car production in the U.K. with zero context (global collapse in auto production) and one mention of Brexit in the last line, you are at the least being disingenuous.

And, again, no mention of PMIs...there’s a surprise. Anyone would think you were lobbying rather than discussing.

@GintyMcGinty

So you have apparently shifted position based, purely on the behaviour of people, not on the issues of Brexit itself and whether it will work politically and economically for the UK.

(This is why a referendum was a terrible idea because some people based their vote on random, superficial, emotional factors).

@TheReluctantPhoenix

I posted an article quoting in context the section relating to Brexit. I cannot be accused of disingenuity unless desperate, which you seem to be.

What do you want me to say about PMIs? What aspect are you so interested in?

How do you intend to address the problems in the car industry caused by Brexit? How do you propose to solve the problems in N.Ireland? What's your plan for farming once the CAP subsidies end by 2024?

@TatianaBis,

This is from the Markit comment on PMI:

‘Companies reported an influx of new orders on a scale exceeded only once in almost four years, and business expectations for growth in the year ahead surged to the highest since comparable data were first available in 2012. Employment consequently rose for the first time since the pandemic struck as firms expanded capacity in response to the new inflows of work and brighter outlook.’

This does seem to run counter to your desperate pessimism and I do suspect that actual purchasing companies in actual U.K. companies have a better feel for what is going on in the U.K. economy than you do!

And, as to your questions, do you really expect anyone to single handedly solve the car industry, NI and agriculture. Just silly rhetoric, really.

In December, Ineos Automotive, owned by billionaire Brexit backer Jim Ratcliffe, announced it will build its first 4x4 vehicle in France, which confirmed that its plans to build a car manufacturing factory in Wales have officially been abandoned.

When are Portugal leaving the EU?

December 2020 - Time24 News (the original link has expired);

Ineos confirms Portugal’s exchange for France to build Grenadier 4X4."

"The company had planned to produce part of the vehicle (the chassis and bodywork) in Estarreja, with the final assembly in Wales. But in July, he [Jim Ratcliffe] informed the municipality...that he was rethinking his strategy due to the pandemic..."

"There was talk of an investment of 300 million euros, with the creation of 600 jobs [in Portugal]. However, “the crisis in the automotive sector led Ineos Automotive to rethink investment, considering a new reality: the decrease in the regular production of car manufacturers in Europe, forced by the forecast of a reduction in sales in the automotive sector of around 20% to 30% for the next years ”
“This decision is a serious blow to the municipality. Covid-19, in this case, was fatal to us. ”

"The construction of a unit in Wales also fell to the ground, which had been in the plans with Portugal..."

“Hambach presented a unique opportunity that we simply couldn’t ignore: buying a modern factory with a world-class work team,” explains Ratcliffe in a statement"...
"The city of Stuttgart is just 200 kilometers away..."

No, still remain. There are so many things we've lost and will lose as a result of this disastrous 'decision'.

UK manufacturing news;

www.mtdmfg.com/

Possible Tesla factory?? Express today;

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1414096/brexit-britain-tesla-factory-somerset-elon-musk-gravity-electric-car-china-india-spt

@TheReluctantPhoenix

Great that we're getting new orders; shame it's in a context in which trade is impacted by loss of SM and CU which makes trade with EU more costly and time consuming. Ok?

I'm not expecting you to solve the problems I am asking you to outline how would go about addressing them in principle. Assuming you have a clue?

Tatiana,

How would you go about addressing the ballooning EU balance sheet, the rise of nationalism across the EU, youth unemployment in Southern Europe caused by a currency level out of line with economic performance and freedom of movement and divergent fiscal policy but harmonised currency and monetary policy?

See, laundry lists of problems are easy to make.

You could ask all those questions of dozens of other countries - the UK is out of the EU, their problems are no longer directly ours. Indirectly yes, by virtue of being near neighbours they will always affect us to some extent. So why exactly do Brexiters want to know about how they would solve them?

If Brexit is so great
why are Brexiters not telling us about the great things
in the UK
that have happened because of it

I'm not interested in car and battery plants in other countries
I want to know about the good things happening here

what are they ?

No, it's as much a disaster as anticipated. We might have to move to Germany as a consequence

@ListeningQuietly,

Clavinova mentioned a potential Tesla factory in SW U.K. about 4 posts up thread.

But maybe you are not actually ‘listening quietly’?

I don't really want to hear lists of what the EU is doing wrong either. No longer being members, we have no direct influence on the decisions.

We could have for example, long lists of what China does wrong. We have heard about their treatment of the Uighars. It's appalling but what exactly can we do about it? It would take a concerted effort by the USA/EU and other countries, and so far, that doesn't seem to be happening.

Most of what Clavinova cut n' pastes is potential - we need information by actual.

BTW most of the Freeports which Sunak was singing the praises of are foreign owned, so guess where their taxes will be going to?

@TheReluctantPhoenix
Daily Express stories are exactly that.
Facts please not fairytales.
Tesla punted that idea nearly year ago and never since.

I was remain then, and I'm remain now. The EU really have shown their worst side lately, but I'd rather be on the inside trying to change things for the better, than on the outside.