Anyone changed their minds

[Baileysforchristmas]

From being a remainer to a Brexiteer on here?

@Literallynoidea,

I think the vaccine issue could be the catalyst that breaks the EU. The first job of any government is to ensure the safety of their own citizens. When powerful countries like France and Germany prioritise ‘the project’ over their own citizens, they will (rightly) get voted out.

I think Merkel, being clever and normally right, realised this, but probably too late. Macron is clueless and may well let Le Penn in, which is really scary.

The vaccine row is a bit of a mess, but does anyone honestly think that if London had decided to manage vaccine procurement separately and was doing better than the rest of the UK, the Westminster government wouldn't be jumping up and down and shouting about how unfair it was and how London was hogging all the supplies?!

I imagine that we could have appointed someone to deal with the vaccine issue ourselves anyway, as some of the countries have been doing. Provision of health services wasn't an EU issue - each country has their own health systems. Also our actions were taken under the Transition arrangements, i.e. as though we were part of the EU still.

It just happens to be that Johnson managed to find one competent crony - it would have been better if the job that Kate Bingham did had been advertised and she had been appointed by transparent processes, which proved that she won the job fair and square as the best candidate without the taint of cronyism.

I love the way the Brexiters have only the vaccine roll out to justify their Leave vote. So very far sighted of them to know that a novel virus would cause a pandemic. Pity they didn't use that far sight to tell us how to keep it out of the country - with Great Britain being an island nation it ought to have been possible. (NI would have had to have worked in tandem with the Republic, but that should have been possible there too.)

@Peregrina,

Yes, there may have been nepotism in play in appointing Kate Bingham, which is never pretty. However, she is spectacularly well qualified for the job with expertise in Science (1st from Oxford in Biotechnology) and economic experience.

‘Taint’....perrlease! I am so pleased my arm has been ‘tainted’ with a vaccine, as opposed to all my friends the same age on the continent.

Taint refers to the cronyism - not a comment on the vaccine. I read today that the AZ vaccine is slightly less effective than some others, but as far as I am concerned, good enough is fine.

I'm a remainer because I'm risk averse. The EU has good and bad parts. The vaccine situation has shown all the bad parts up. But that doesn't mean that on balance I think leaving the EU was the best thing to do.

However, it is done and dusted. No point rehashing old arguments. We made a decision we need to stick with it and do the best we can.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@Literallynoidea,

I think the vaccine issue could be the catalyst that breaks the EU. The first job of any government is to ensure the safety of their own citizens. When powerful countries like France and Germany prioritise ‘the project’ over their own citizens, they will (rightly) get voted out.

I think Merkel, being clever and normally right, realised this, but probably too late. Macron is clueless and may well let Le Penn in, which is really scary.[/quote]
Ah yes the mythic breakup of the EU. Much touted by Brexiters on zero evidence.

If anything Brexit has strengthened EU ties, and in 10 years, our economic decline will be a salutary tale.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@Peregrina,

Yes, there may have been nepotism in play in appointing Kate Bingham, which is never pretty. However, she is spectacularly well qualified for the job with expertise in Science (1st from Oxford in Biotechnology) and economic experience.

‘Taint’....perrlease! I am so pleased my arm has been ‘tainted’ with a vaccine, as opposed to all my friends the same age on the continent.[/quote]
And Dido Harding was spectacularly ill-qualified, hence her fuck ups.

No!
I don't think many - or any - governments are covering themselves in glory, and those of the EU nations are no different. But I still firmly believe that you need heft, economically, politically and culturally against the might of the US and China in particular and that can only be provided by being part of a group. Also many other reasons but that's perhaps the most tangible and basic.

I had got sucked into the vaccine row and had started to feel that the EU were behaving unfairly until I read that India has halted exports of the vaccine. Having seen how differently the reporting around this has been handled compared to the fury about the EU, I have come back to thinking that we are being played.

Kate my name is at the start of the alphabet Bingham
had the nouse to listen to experts
so her bit of the job worked

EVERY PART that has been under the control of UK politicians has not worked

and why if Brexit was about getting rid of unelected bureaucrats
is the never elected David Frost in charge of negotiating for the UK

@TatianaBis how much of all that damage was covid though? My point is, the EU had a chance to shine as an ideological system, and we had an equal chance to drown as the 'insignificant plague island' we were thought to be, but the opposite has happened. The first test of the new 'free-UK' and 'EU-sans-UK' was covid. We 'won' that round.

@Sugarygoodness

how much of all that damage was covid though?

What - trade? You think Brexit rules impeding exports are the fault of Covid?

The EU has strengths and weaknesses as much as any trading bloc.

The idea that we have won any round based on vaccines when our trade and business is in the process of being decimated by Brexit is mindbogglingly superficial and naive.

The UK had a chance to shine politically as a country and it chose nationalism, bigotry, lies, and to shoot itself in the foot politically and economically.

If you don't understand that upfront you will just have to learn from experience in the long term.

@TatianaBis,

That last post of yours was pure hyperbole.

And when Marine Le Penn is leading France, you will see what real bigotry looks like- and it is not pretty.

nationalism, bigotry, lies, and to shoot itself in the foot politically and economically.

This is all very emotive. None of it true, mind. I'm struggling to take you seriously when you seem to use vague mud slinging instead of any actual, articulable points.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@TatianaBis,

That last post of yours was pure hyperbole.

And when Marine Le Penn is leading France, you will see what real bigotry looks like- and it is not pretty.[/quote]
No it's pure fact, unfortunately.

I'm part French so I'm more than familiar with la famille Le Penn.

I am equally familiar with the bigotry against the EU, EU residents, immigrants in general & the rise of racism and xenophobia in the UK consequent on the Leave campaign.

@Sugarygoodness

nationalism, bigotry, lies, and to shoot itself in the foot politically and economically.

This is all very emotive. None of it true, mind. I'm struggling to take you seriously when you seem to use vague mud slinging instead of any actual, articulable points.

If only it wasn't true.

Unfortunately the whole Brexit movement is based on fantasy. Those seduced by are not yet aware of that, although some have had a hard awakening already in businesses already affected by it. For others it will become all too clear over the next 10 years.

@TatianaBis,

Let me be honest. A family member of mine lived for 10 years in rural France. She lost lots of friends when it was discovered that she was Jewish (she did not advertise it but spoke out when others made anti Semitic remarks). Take a few steps away from Le Marais and, certainly as a Jew, you will find more bigotry than you ever will in the U.K.

And you cannot describe the idea that the U.K. is inexorable decline as ‘pure fact’. It is hyperbolic opinion, which may or may not prove to be correct. I think it won’t be, but I am not going to state that as ‘pure fact’. Time will tell..

The idea that we have won any round based on vaccines when our trade and business is in the process of being decimated by Brexit is mindbogglingly superficial and naive.

The CBI are more optimistic than TatianaBis. Brexit doesn't appear to be the number one problem in this report;

Manufacturing outlook improves in March – CBI Industrial Trends Survey.

23 MARCH 2021
Manufacturing output volumes in the three months to March improved to broadly flat, which marked their highest balance since May 2019. That’s according to the CBI’s latest monthly Industrial Trends Survey.

The survey of 321 manufacturers found that output increased in eight out of 17 sub-sectors. Growth in the electronic engineering and plastic products sub-sectors was largely offset by declines in paper, printing & media and aerospace in the headline balance.

Looking ahead, manufacturers expect output to pick up rapidly over the next three months, with expectations at their strongest since August 2017.

Total orders books improved to their highest balance since April 2019, surpassing their long-run average. Export order books strengthened to broadly in line with their long-run average.

Anna Leach, CBI Deputy Chief Economist, said:

“It’s great to see the mood lift among manufacturers, buoyed by a jump in order books. But firms continue to grapple with higher freight costs as well as raw material shortages. Consequently, manufacturers anticipate prices to grow at a quick pace next quarter. Meanwhile, risks to growth in European markets are elevated given the slow pace of vaccine roll-out and the likelihood of further lockdowns.

“This month’s Budget gave grounds for optimism in the manufacturing sector. In particular, the super-deduction could be a real catalyst to investment plans...

www.cbi.org.uk/media-centre/articles/manufacturing-outlook-improves-in-march-cbi-industrial-trends-survey/

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@TatianaBis,

Let me be honest. A family member of mine lived for 10 years in rural France. She lost lots of friends when it was discovered that she was Jewish (she did not advertise it but spoke out when others made anti Semitic remarks). Take a few steps away from Le Marais and, certainly as a Jew, you will find more bigotry than you ever will in the U.K.

And you cannot describe the idea that the U.K. is inexorable decline as ‘pure fact’. It is hyperbolic opinion, which may or may not prove to be correct. I think it won’t be, but I am not going to state that as ‘pure fact’. Time will tell..[/quote]
I'm well aware of the AS in France as well as the general racism. It is not a trend I would like to see encouraged here the way it has been. A good example is the famous Leave poster echoing propaganda posters of Nazi Germany.

The problem with AS in the Labour party and the resignation of 2 MPs shows it can hardly be held not to be an issue here.

The decline has only just started, we are only a few months in. Already fishing is majorly impacted, financial services, import/export of food products including meat. N.I is in complete mess.

I've had too many discussions in the past with Brexiters claiming that inevitabilities which came to pass - such as loss of passporting for financial services & haemorrhage of money & trade to other financial centres, loss of exports for UK fisherman & farmers etc, problems in N.I - were 'hyperbolic' and 'may or may not prove to be correct' - to take this kind of line seriously.

Meanwhile in the car industry:

Figures released at the end of December showed that in the 11 months to November, total UK car production was now down 31% compared with the same period in 2019, representing a loss of 380,809 models at a cost of roughly £10.5bn ($14.3bn) to the sector.

The British automotive sector forms a key component of the national economy, turning over an annual £78.9bn and representing the country’s biggest exporter of goods at 13% of total exports.

Factories have been allowed to continue to function during the most recent national lockdown, however these new production curbs will hit hopes of a recovery.

Car production in the UK has already been a casualty of Brexit, with some manufacturers choosing to move their production elsewhere. In December, Ineos Automotive, owned by billionaire Brexit backer Jim Ratcliffe, announced it will build its first 4x4 vehicle in France, which confirmed that its plans to build a car manufacturing factory in Wales have officially been abandoned.

uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/brexit-jaguar-land-rover-vauxhall-nissan-coronavirus-car-production-122839848.html

I read that India has halted exports of the vaccine.

And not a peep from the Brexiters about it. It's only when the EU f*cks up that they use it to justify their vote.

She lost lots of friends when it was discovered that she was Jewish (she did not advertise it but spoke out when others made anti Semitic remarks).

Can anyone honestly say that they have never heard an anti-semitic remark in this country? Sadly, despite history, it's something which is all too common in many nations. We could also mention gypsies and travellers.....

I read that India has halted exports of the vaccine .And not a peep from the Brexiters about it. It's only when the EU fcks up that they use it to justify their vote

But we haven't spent 40 odd years as part of a union with India, paying in millions a week, accepting laws made by them, shared courts etc etc.

Of course we are going to look at the EU and be glad we have severed our ties with them after how they have behaved.

India may well live to regret any decisions they make to stop our vaccine roll out, seeing as we have always been huge givers of national aid to them.

The EU bollocksed up its Vaccine procurement.
They will recover and catch up.

By the end of the summer, EU citizens will have had excellent beach holidays and be enjoying food and goods from all over the Single Market.

The UK will still be trying to delay taking back control of its borders