Westminstenders: Move Your Business To The EU

[RedToothBrush]

The government is advising people to move their businesses to the EU to avoid UK taxation and red tape.

Why would you do this?

For the interests of the uk?

Or is it about power WITHIN the uk?

Vaccines normally take 5-10 years to roll out and these have, of necessity, been telescoped to a limited time frame, with limited trial numbers.

This isn't correct. Most of the 5-10 years that it takes to develop a new vaccine is spent doing basic science, raising money and interest, and overcoming regulatory hurdles. With the covid vaccine, much of the basic science was already done, and regulatory and financial hurdles have of course been facilitated by governments and regulators.

The clinical trials that were done on the covid vaccines were fairly classic ones involving many tens of thousands of trial subjects, and the reason they produced such quick data was largely because covid is very prevalent so it is easy (assuming your vaccine works) to generate robust data.

Vaccine trials are designed to compare vaccinated with unvaccinated cohorts: you vaccinate with the vaccine or a control, and then wait to see how many people get sick, and whether there is a difference between the two groups. Where the disease concerned is relatively rare, or where onset is slow, or where the vaccine isn't especially effective - it can take years to see a significant difference between the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups. With covid, this stage was very quick because the virus is very prevalent and disease develops quickly after exposure.

So yes, the covid vaccine development WAS quick but short cuts were not taken. These are safe and effective vaccines. The lack of data in older people in the AZ trial is not due to the timescale but because the company fucked up.

Look! A 🐿!

I tend to scroll past certain posters I admit... my blood pressure does better

Clav
Why are you so obsessed with which EU countries get which vaccines ?

We are in the UK.
The UK is not in the EU.
We should care about UK vaccination rates
and leave the EU and its sovereign nation state members to sort themselves out

All the discussion about ‘our’ vaccine, their vaccines makes gently chuckle.

The reality is that vaccines are not the property of a country or government unless developed by research labs entirely funded by said government.
All of those vaccines have research labs in one country, funding from the company in another country and production lines yet again in another place. It’s the strength of being part of a huge group such as the EU. It also means that there is no possibility to go all nationalist about it.

Plus of course, there is the other big ethical question... why is it ok for one country to just hog all the vaccine for itself (like the U.K. is doing - apparently having put a mark on 100 millions of vaccines, Way above what it needs) and leave poorer countries with nothing. Sometimes the WHO had warned we should avoid....

@ListeningQuietly

Clav Why are you so obsessed with which EU countries get which vaccines ?

We are in the UK.
The UK is not in the EU.
We should care about UK vaccination rates
and leave the EU and its sovereign nation state members to sort themselves out

Clav vaguely reminds me of a child who is trying to needle their parents into letting them stay up late by pointing out that "Gemma is allowed up", or getting out of eating their veg by noting that "Jocastas parents don't force her to eat veg"

However, as history is written, and digital scholars start asking how Brexit happened, they will notice the lack of a single credible argument for in over 4 years. Not just in these threads either.

@Mistigri

It can take more than 10 years to develop a vaccine: 10 - 15 years in is quite normal. They have to pass through 6 general states - exploratory, pre-clinical, clinical, regulatory review and approval, manufacturing, and quality control.

It's simply not true to say that short cuts were not taken - they had to be taken in the circumstances. All the stages listed had to be completed but the time frames were adjusted to the circumstances.

To say much of the basic science was done doesn't really mean anything - the basic science of vaccination has been done - but it's not as simple as taking an existing vaccine and chucking in a new virus - because the immune response to each individual virus is different.

This is all ok, it's the nature of a pandemic. I'm not suggesting it could have been differently. The scientists behind the vaccines have been working as hard as they can.

But when you said that AZ is effectively conducting a clinical trial on the 65+ age bracket - that's true - but I don't think it's significantly more true of AZ than any of the other vaccines.

Yay!! to your first vaccination squid4.
My sister's a nurse and has had hers, too.
I swear I started sleeping better when she told me.

Yes. You're quite right about the absence of mourning, or marking, what we are going through - and the quite unbelievable mortality.

I quite often find myself thinking exactly the same thing.

On the one hand, there is grief and anxiety and news, on the other, a kind of denial: the two gojng together, and 'news' standing as a substitute for true acknowledgment.

It's bizarre.

because the immune response to each individual virus is different.

because it's genetic.

My 84 year old dad got his vaccination (AZ) today He said that the practice was vaccinating in age order fortunately not alphabetically - but that all the other "oldies" in there at the same time, so presumably a similar age, were really decrepit and doddery, some with sticks and/or carers (he is still really fit, cycles, walks places). Just goes to show the range of 80+ year olds.

Re Nicola saying that she's going to be publishing the Scottish vaccine allocations, after being told by the WM Government to pull their figures before as they didn't want the Scottish Government to be so transparent as it was "commercially confidential" and there were "safety concerns" : this was in response to Ruth Davidson complaining that not enough of the "allocation" had been used immediately. Nicola said they'd been told to pull them - yet WM then proceeded to continue to brief about the numbers being allocated . So she's decided, "Stuff it, we may as well just publish and be damned." not quite those words

DGRossetti
Clav vaguely reminds me of a child

Vaguely? Must be your age.

Glad to hear it, prettybird.
Also pleased that you have had yours, squid. Nice to know you are still reading along.

to @squid4

I can't speak for anyone else, but mourning requires time, energy and space. At the moment, I am just in a holding pattern of work, homeschooling and sleep. I think when we get out the other side to "normality" again, that's when it will hit.

ListeningQuietly
We should care about UK vaccination rates and leave the EU and its sovereign nation state members to sort themselves out

Today;
The EU should consider legal means and even block exports if it does not receive the vaccine doses promised by drug companies including AstraZeneca, the president of the European Council has said.

Charles Michel made the comments in a letter to four EU leaders as Brussels and AstraZeneca are embroiled in an escalating row over the bloc's slow start to its inoculation programme.

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-eu-told-to-consider-legal-action-over-astrazeneca-coronavirus-vaccine-row-12201563

ParadiseIsland
It’s the strength of being part of a huge group such as the EU. It also means that there is no possibility to go all nationalist about it.

8 January -
Commission lets Germany off the hook for coronavirus vaccine solidarity breach.

Germany repeated Friday that it will receive more doses of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine outside the EU's joint vaccination program — but the Commission refuses to acknowledge that this contradicts the bloc's deal.

Germany secured 30 million doses of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine in September, violating the EU's vaccination strategy banning countries from conducting parallel negotiations.

Less than two hours before Kautz's statement, Commission President Ursula von der Leyen confirmed that countries cannot sign separate deals.

www.politico.eu/article/germanys-coronavirus-vaccine-side-deal-at-odds-with-legally-binding-eu-pact/

Hungary, which has a track record of breaking ranks with Brussels on matters of policy, would be the first European Union country to approve and start using a Chinese COVID vaccine.

www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-hungary-vaccine/hungary-pm-asks-regulator-to-assess-chinese-covid-vaccine-quickly-idUSKBN29K0N3?edition-redirect=uk

Plus of course, there is the other big ethical question...why is it ok for one country to just hog all the vaccine for itself (like the U.K. is doing - apparently having put a mark on 100 millions of vaccines, Way above what it needs) and leave poorer countries with nothing.

I thought the UK had one of the highest death rates from coronavirus in the world? Do you regard Germany as a poorer country? Why have the EU reserved over 2.3 billion vaccine doses? Plus side deals. Are the EU morally reprehensible?

Also;
Jan 2021 - The UK has helped to raise $1 billion for the coronavirus COVAX Advance Market Commitment (AMC) through match-funding other donors, which combined with the £548 million of UK aid pledged will help distribute one billion doses of coronavirus vaccines to 92 developing countries this year.

www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-raises-1bn-so-vulnerable-countries-can-get-vaccine

June 2020 -
(Reuters) - British drugmaker AstraZeneca has doubled manufacturing capacity for its potential coronavirus vaccine to 2 billion doses in two deals involving Microsoft billionaire Bill Gates that guarantee early supply to lower income countries.

www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-astrazeneca-idUSKBN23B2I5

Tony Blair's possible action plan...

...the world must come together to make sure that such capacity exists on every continent, with provision in place for the fair, equitable distribution of all that is necessary to combat the disease effectively.
The capability will contain...
1) Vaccine, antiviral and biologics development at speed
2) Research and development – including rapid development of antiviral and vaccines platforms capable of adding multiple strains quickly
3) Comparable data – the lack of standards has made the surveillance and health management effort harder
4) Distribution mechanisms which are instantaneous
5) Tests for disease which are rapid at point of use and as accurate as traditional PCR
6) Data systems which capture all relevant data fast and in comprehensive form
7) Surveillance systems which allow early tracking and discovery of disease and mutation

I agree it must be tackled globally and collaboratively. Nationalism has no place: it's no good just wiping it out in your own country unless you're willing to close your borders forever.

I'd also add that, in time, scientists need to research:
-what repeated vaccinations for different strains is doing to our immune systems.
-why some people don't catch it after significant exposure
-why some people are asymptomatic

And government must urgently consider:
-properly funding our health services
-how to improve general public health
-reducing inequality
-and last but not least, how to protect and support our healthcare staff.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/tony-blair-covid-uk-vaccine-b1794135.html

Jocasta’s parents don't force her to eat veg

I bet they do, though.

I prefer chocolate.

)))))))))))))))) Chocolate ((((((((((((((((((((

M&S dark chocolate cherry liqueurs.

Just saying.

www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-economy/first-flashes-of-brexit-trade-trouble-appear-in-uk-data-idUSKBN29X0PP

I never really get the whole chocolate thing. I don't eat it very often.

But I do love Anton Berg chocolate marzipan - apricot, cherry, plum - any of them.

Luckily they're really expensive here so I only eat them at Christmas.

My one real indulgence is Ritter Sport Marzipan. It got me through each and every one of my PGCE essays/assignments. Then I couldn’t find it for years until it appeared in Lidl.

Lidl also sell bars of dark chocolate-covered Marzipan. Lush!

...none of his children were born into poverty though.

@Clavinova
So population control is only for the poor?
This pov is completely repugnant, and also completely ignorant of reality.

Are you aware of this index (and similar rankings of global ecological footprints)?
www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/the-countries-that-use-the-most-resources-per-person-14699472#gid=ci0256b161e0022716&pid=4-united-states

Comparing his current turnover to his trading year 2019/2020 almost completely ignores the effect of coronavirus. What is the name of the business?

Clavinova
I am pretty sure Belgium was affected by covid for most of last year and continues to be.

A haulage firm affected by covid or by Brexit?
What a difficult question.

What do you imagine haulage firms do with their vehicles, @Clavinova