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Brexit

Westministenders: Biden Time Til The Penny Drops

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/01/2021 16:03

Next week sees a changing in the international guard with implications for the UK in a post Brexit world where we are starting to realise we are very much on our own and frozen out.

The government were able to cosy up with Trump much to the EU's distaste, but Biden is a whole different kettle of fish. Assuming of course that things go to plan next week and the USA don't end up with an almighty bloody mess on their hands.

The political landscape change means the US will become much more inward looking to try and sort its own shit out (amongst domestic terrorism and having run out of vaccine supplies with no stock available from Pfizer until June top of the agenda) and what little international diplomacy there is, is highly unlikely to be centred around the desparate needs of the UK.

The EU meanwhile are largely happy with their lot over the Brexit deal and to leave the UK to their fish stew. With the sole exception of Ireland, who strangely enough the EU and US will probably be very willing to help - putting the Irish into a unique bridging position between the two which they can use to capitalise on.

We will be schooled on the benefits of being in the EU the hard way it seems. The Thatcherite dream of frictionless trade has been well and truly krilled off. The future beckons with the beaucratic mess and spiralling cost of haulage to Europe making it financially not worthwhile even for big firms but especially for small businesses. A quick look at the cost of smart phones is revealling, and tells a story. Prior to the 1st you could buy from the EU. Now the only place shipping to the UK is through Hong Kong, with all the extra associated charges and customs. The price has gone up considerably. Already.

The fact that the government are only just starting to stay they are herring about problems and will endevour to resolve them just doesn't cut it. They were told of the issues years ago. They chose to ignore them. They had better things to do. Like go for a nice holiday at their second home in Europe or fancy dinner at an authetic French restuarant. Strangely enough for various reasons these pastimes are currently off the menu its starting to dawn just how we are stuck between a rock and a hard plaice as a consequence.

You didn't need to be a brain sturgeon to see this coming. It is exactly what was predicted. Queues of lorries as post Christmas trade picks up and stock piles run out, but also empty shelves where things like jigsaws, fresh vegetable, cheese, electricals and paper used to be. The sunlight uplands and promise of brexit opportunities are turning out to be a load of old pollocks. It will take years for some sectors to rebalance and adjust. If they make it through and don't end up on the rocks.

It is a turtle disaster for the economy. On top of the covid.

Even the pro-leave fishermen are starting to realise that the deal was a load of carp. And want to dump their rotten langoustines outside Downing Street. Their fish are far from happy and they have finally haddock with the government. It doesn't help that the fisheries minister has openly said she didn't read the deal because she was too busy organising a nativity. Which sums up the whole situation in a perfect way. Its not even incompetence, its total indifference and apathy.

The Penny will drop as the Pound does. We will learn that its better to be a big fish in a medium pond than a medium fish in a huge pond simply because of how the food chain works.

The sharks are slowly circling for Johnson and once the heat is off, and we get to the stage were the messaging doesn't read like 'We want covid to kill you whilst we have a Tory Bunfight' as it doesn't sit terribly well with the public.

The dust is settling and who does Johnson play pin the blame on now? This deal isn't the result of sabotage by remainers. This deal is his and his alone to own. Isolated at No10 Johnson is likely to start to feel increasingly like he has no friends. He has a whalely big job ahead of him to turn things around a plot a new course ahead to the future for HMS Britannia.

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TheElementsOfMedical · 18/01/2021 08:28

Wow, ToryBrexitannianNationalPlague must be doing really really amazingly, given CnPnova's frantic and prolific efforts this weekend.🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿

I have to say, it's so very astonishing when occasionally the mask slips through the screeds and screeds of copied words, and their actual sentiments are expressed - inevitably an attack on any factual, unarguable RL experience if it is written by UnBeLeaver - the wrong icon is enough to condemn you as a lying traitor, and any possibility of foreign taint is the smoking gun.

I'd suggest they stick to the copied words if they want to preserve the patina of respectability.

Chersfrozenface · 18/01/2021 09:26

@PawFives

Belated PMK 🐟&🐿 (sounds like a bad pub name!)
Ah, a quick pint down the Fish and Squirrel.

Great idea.

FrankieStein402 · 18/01/2021 09:34

when in fact you have no immunity until you have second jab

We need to be careful about definitive statements that are simply wrong.

  1. A single injection has beem shown to provide protection between 70 and 90% depending on the vaccine
  2. Vaccination simply reduces the likelihood of the virus having a serious impact - 90% effective means 10 in 100 who would have caught the virus still catch it - vaccination does not make you 'safe', whilst the prevalence of carriers is high you still need to take precautions
  3. The 3 week gap before booster is an artefact of the trials. Usually there is a much longer gap but this was minimised in the trials to get data for approval sooner. How long the vaccines are effective is obviously not known because they've only been around for six months or so - but it would be very surprising if the oxford vaccine at least was not effective for at least 9 months
4.The pfizer vaccine in particular is very effective and there is a hint that the oxford vaccine will be equally effective - in any case effectivities at 70% are considered good - bcg for example was at the 70% level.
mrslaughan · 18/01/2021 09:35

@QueenOfThorns - the scientific community are trying to make as much noise as possible about the risks in this governments polices re vaccination program. The fact they are using the language that you are "vaccinated" after one dose (not true), Raab saying there was no guarantees you would get your second dose (one of the Sunday morning shows yesterday) - it's just like Brexit - the half wits are setting the narrative are reported in the press as gospel, and the people who are trying to raise the alarm are ignored.
They still are not really sure what the vaccine gives us - will stop severe Covid and dying- but dose it stop transmission? Does it stop long Covid?
The Astra Zeneca vaccine there is apparently some data about delaying the 2nd dose - the Pfizer none.

Peregrina- if you get offered it again at short notice - take it. Against policy some GP surgeries , are ringing around patients who can get in quickly when they have doses left over (people not turning up) so it isn't wasted.

inquietant · 18/01/2021 09:37

@Peregrina

Funnily enough my surgery asked me if I wanted the jab yesterday. I don't know why, I am not 70 yet, and not in a priority group, so I said I was happy to wait. The lady who phoned seemed delighted with this.

DH who is already in his 70s hasn't been offered yet. Most odd.

This is because they don't want to offer twice so the ones getting catch up slots need to be people not already in any pipeline.

Otherwise it'll start getting cocked up with people getting invited twice, having different hand at the wrong intervals, having four!

inquietant · 18/01/2021 09:38

Confused 'hand' = jabs

mrslaughan · 18/01/2021 09:44

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/kevin-maguire-nervous-talk-boris-23335280

Well this is depressing- but I just think
"Really?"

Peregrina · 18/01/2021 09:49

It is a depressing thought. But let us remember the young people that Johnson and his cronies have shafted, and hope to God that their votes make the difference.

HannibalHayes · 18/01/2021 09:54

@TheElementsOfMedical

Wow, ToryBrexitannianNationalPlague must be doing really really amazingly, given CnPnova's frantic and prolific efforts this weekend.🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿

I have to say, it's so very astonishing when occasionally the mask slips through the screeds and screeds of copied words, and their actual sentiments are expressed - inevitably an attack on any factual, unarguable RL experience if it is written by UnBeLeaver - the wrong icon is enough to condemn you as a lying traitor, and any possibility of foreign taint is the smoking gun.

I'd suggest they stick to the copied words if they want to preserve the patina of respectability.

Yes, I've noticed that when she tries to give an actual, you know, opinion on something, it does seem to have somewhat, shall we say, xenophobic properties.

Anyway, are we all prospering mightily yet?

Peregrina · 18/01/2021 09:59

This article by John Danzig explaining how Cameron, May and Johnson let the country down over Brexit, says very much what we have said on these threads over the past four and a half years.

But we may have the most incompetent Government this century, but English people will still vote for them.

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 18/01/2021 10:09

On threads elsewhere there are examples of older people who have had one jag demanding to be taken to the supermarket the next day, after shielding since last March. Or going to their friend's house for coffee and a game of poker. There are articles in the media about "over 50s" rushing to book holidays. I read of one man who had booked 5 already! (coach trips to York, Bath etc).
I can understand the pent-up frustration, and I suppose they're assuming everything will be normal when they get there (it won't, because so many small shops and cafes will have shut for ever) but it just struck me as not only misguided but utterly selfish.

The young (my son included) have had their livelihoods devastated to protect the older age group, and as soon as they get the jag they're off out, spreading the virus. Hell mend them.

As usual, communication is lacking: people getting it need to be told they have to continue with all measures for some time to come.
Sadly, I predict a spike in cases & hospitalisation among the vaccinated, which will result in yet longer lockdown for all of us.

prettybird · 18/01/2021 10:14

Not sure if it's been taken down now, but for a while Ryanair were running highly irresponsible as I said to dh at the time ads for holidays with the tag line "Jab and Go" ShockAngry

Sostenueto · 18/01/2021 10:20

Glad some people are agreeing with me. My DD gets her jab this morning ( carer) my Dgd will gets hers before mine ( shes now 19 with auto immune blood disorder) and I will get mine sometime August according to predictor app. Then we all gotta wait for second jab. Then we gotta wait to see how long immunity and I estimate 2 years before any real sense of the new norm unless the bloody virus keeps mutating at tremendous rate till it becomes impossible to get an effective vacinne.

Peregrina · 18/01/2021 10:21

Over on another thread the BeLeavers are singing the praises of the vaccine roll out in the UK and enjoying the fact that Germany hasn't done terribly well. But I fully expect the UK Government to mess this up too. (That was just about the only benefit they could come up with in nearly 1000 posts.)

I thought mrslaughan's link explained perfectly. We need old fashioned methods like proper track and trace, quarantine, with a guaranteed income for those forced to do so - all of which the Tory Government have messed up to a greater or lesser extent.

pointythings · 18/01/2021 10:39

You sound very pessimistic right now, sos. Flowers. And that is completely understandable.

But while the virus doesn't stand still, neither will vaccine development. I expect the COVID vaccine to end up like the flu vaccine - an annual thing and adapted to prevalent strains. Yes, we may have to change how we live longer term, but it won't be lockdown forever. Looking at the reduction in flu rates, there's an argument to be made for keeping some changes, such as mask wearing in winter and hand washing.

RedToothBrush · 18/01/2021 10:39

Kate Holton @kholtonreuters
More than 10 shellfish lorries have parked up near Downing Street and Westminster to protest the post-Brexit changes that mean they are struggling to export. Drivers say they want people to realise what is going on @ventureseafoods #Brexit @Santibuesa @LochfyneLangous

Westministenders: Biden Time Til The Penny Drops
Westministenders: Biden Time Til The Penny Drops
OP posts:
Peregrina · 18/01/2021 10:41

If it leads to a better understanding of Long Covid which appears to share symptoms with ME and CFS then that too will be a bonus.

SabrinaThwaite · 18/01/2021 10:45

Don’t forget, given current Government pronouncements, that there’s a difference between the number for “inviting people to get vaccinated” and the number for actual vaccinations.

DGRossetti · 18/01/2021 10:47

Where are you on the Sumption index. I bet a long way below his familiy ....

www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jan/17/jonathan-sumption-cancer-patient-life-less-valuable-others

jasjas1973 · 18/01/2021 10:47

But while the virus doesn't stand still, neither will vaccine development. I expect the COVID vaccine to end up like the flu vaccine - an annual thing and adapted to prevalent strains

I would like CV to be eradicated, like Polio, it appears to be highly contagious and even relatively low population levels of infection able to cripple health services.
It also isn't particularly seasonal.

jasjas1973 · 18/01/2021 10:49

Don’t forget, given current Government pronouncements, that there’s a difference between the number for “inviting people to get vaccinated” and the number for actual vaccinations

Sounds abit like the testing numbers scandal.......

Jason118 · 18/01/2021 10:49

If the evidence of numbers of vaccines given is to be believed then credit is due to the organisation making it happen. Where the government have got it wrong, in their ever hopeful 'how can we be make more popular' missives, is allowing the population to believe that the vaccine is a panacea. It's only part of the solution and needs to be touted as that.

SabrinaThwaite · 18/01/2021 10:53

@jasjas1973

Don’t forget, given current Government pronouncements, that there’s a difference between the number for “inviting people to get vaccinated” and the number for actual vaccinations

Sounds abit like the testing numbers scandal.......

Quite.

My DM has had two invitations already, for jabs at different locations (suspect it’s because she received the first letter some time ago and ignored it, so she was given another appointment).

RedToothBrush · 18/01/2021 10:54

@Peregrina

Over on another thread the BeLeavers are singing the praises of the vaccine roll out in the UK and enjoying the fact that Germany hasn't done terribly well. But I fully expect the UK Government to mess this up too. (That was just about the only benefit they could come up with in nearly 1000 posts.)

I thought mrslaughan's link explained perfectly. We need old fashioned methods like proper track and trace, quarantine, with a guaranteed income for those forced to do so - all of which the Tory Government have messed up to a greater or lesser extent.

We are going to hit a problem soon enough with supply. There are production issues. And there is the matter of whether the delayed dose will work. And whether people will ever get a second dose - when we start doing this, it will slow numbers down considerably. Whilst people are excited about 300,000 plus a day being vaccinated thats not taking into account that its only one dose so comparing ourselves to other countries is slightly misleading...

At the moment its full steam ahead and we have done well but i would be amazed if we didn't hit problems.

My concern is that we will go for speed and in the process forget about some of the most vulnerable who struggle to get to vaccination centres and will struggle to get alternative measures. We will all be too busy hailing the success of the programme in terms of numbers.

I also think we may hit problems with our understanding of the vaccine. You can still catch and transmit the virus even if you've had the virus especially if you catch it in the two weeks whilst you wait for your immunity to build. There have been a couple of threads over the weekend saying things along these lines and the suggestion that since vaccinators themselves havent got immunity (or in some cases haven't had the vaccination at all yet) they have accidentally infected people they are trying to protect. This will scare people but its perfectly plausible and not a lot can be done to completely eliminate this risk without exposing more to risk through delays.

And if a vaccination doesn't stop transmission and the public doesn't understand that, we are in for some interesting issues further down the line.

I think we will see a bunch of unknown unknowns pop up in the next few weeks.

I think we are in danger of getting over excited at this stage... Theres not enough tempering that mood.

Don't get me wrong we are doing well and im pleased but an inability to foresee and plan for problems is a national weakness.

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