So, how long will it be before we join again?

[BlackForestCake]

Will you be supporting the campaign to join the EU?

It will be good for business to do away with a lot of pointless red tape at customs, and our people will benefit from being able to travel, study and work in 28 countries.

The NYT has it spot on.

@debwong

We won't be allowed to rejoin without taking the punishment beating that we've got coming to us (deservedly so).

What a bizarre mindset. Why should any country deserve to be punished for making a democratic choice to leave a voluntary union? Some of you really worry me.

Poster didn’t say “deserve” to be punished. They said “punishment beating we’ve got coming”. We are going to be punished- because, we have chosen to make ourselves poorer, sicker, less educated, more crime-filled, more insular, more jobless, etc. That is something we have done to ourselves, not something that someone else is going to do to us.

I don't get the talk about punishment either. This is the kind of thinking is prevalent in the Daily Mail etc to stoke up xenophobia and their notion of English nationalism. Them the enemy versus plucky little UK. The Uk decided to leave the EU and enter into trade talks for a deal. Despite the rhetoric of 'they need us more than we need them' it was UK against a remarkably united 27 nations. If you leave the club you can't expect anywhere near the same trade deal. The UK is now a competitor, and the EU would be stupid to give a no strings trade agreement to a country that actively seeks to undercut their economies. It isn't punishment it is the reality of leaving. Also there is the issue of trust. Boris Johnson and this Government have already shown that they are willing to break an international agreements with the Internal Market Bill. Who would trust the UK to keep their word without reasonable measures to seek redress?

Equally, if we ever decide to rejoin there would be no special treatment. The UK had a good deal before it left, it had the right to veto, reduced payments etc and was heavily involved in the development of EU policy. Rejoining would be on the same terms of other nations who would seek to join e.g countries in the former Yugoslavia, Ukraine etc This is not punishment it is reality of leaving.

daisypond

I see your point. I totally agree with you. I think we will be in for a troubled time. This Government wants to implement Thatcher on speed type of policies. As I keep saying Brexiteers really need to read Britannia Unchained to see what is in store. Small state low taxation economies make the rich richer and the poor poorer . Wealth does not trickle down. The only winners are the likes of Rees Mogg, Farage Dyson, Jeff Bezos and the already wealthy.

I read the UK section of the current Economist this morning.
Optimistic and Pessimistic at the same time, but VERY VERY interesting.

I would suggest that the more people who read the quiet weekly analytical articles the better
as well as
blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/
and
chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/

NOTHING will happen quickly
COVID will see to that
the UKs big public test will be COP26

Thanks ListeningQuietly

Interesting reading. Also the sort of changes like levelling up for example would take much longer, certainly more than one Parliamentary term without the problems posed by coronavirus. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out in those in the former Labour heartlands who voted for Brexit and Tory in the last election.

The problem with what you are claiming is: Johnson doesn't even have to deliver on growth that exceeds the EU. All he has to do is convince a smallish percentage of people who voted Remain that returning to the EU is now more trouble than it's worth. The vast majority of Leavers haven't changed their minds - and are very unlikely to do so while Rejoiners continue to inform them that they're racist, xenophobic Little Englanders (particularly bigoted and offensive if like me, you're not English) and that they wish them dead.

'You're xenophobic and I hope you die soon.' Hasn't worked up till now.

The other problem is: which political party will grant a referendum on rejoining?

The other problem is: which political party will grant a referendum on rejoining?

Libdems maybe?

It will be interesting to see how this all pans out in those in the former Labour heartlands who voted for Brexit and Tory in the last election.
Ah, the myth of the Red Wall.
The electoral data is very clear - 2019 was merely the tipping on a 20 year change. NOTHING Labour can do will win those seats back at least until it recognises the REAL reasons, which it does not

The other problem is: which political party will grant a referendum on rejoining?
Rejoining will be by whimper not bang.
Tiny steps of attrition - see Switzerland

I really don't think the LibDems, who committed political Hari-kari in Dec' 2019, will ever be a realistic political force ever again.

What makes you think that any 'tiny steps' will be in the direction of the EU ListeningQuietly?

@Shaniac

JuliaDomna If someone posts exactly like a brexiter they probably are, whether they want to admit to it or not.

Ok you got me, im a brexiter, im just soooo scared of anonymous people on mumsnet i couldn't possibly admit it. After all its a proven scientific fact all remainers feel the same way and mentally and physically cannot let themselves get over a decision made 4 years ago.

With friends like you, Shaniac on the 'Remain' side of the fence, who needs enemies?

@ListeningQuietly

The UK will not rejoin the EU but over the next couple of years lots of tiny incremental steps will bring it back into the Single Market by stealth

• rules of origin for manufacturing are the stalking horse I'll lay a bet on

and Brexit will unravel.

Sadly while the UK has mass media owned by foreigners and tax exiles, the proper questions will not be asked of politicians

I'm inclined to agree. I believe we will quietly move towards BRINO.

Most Leavers really, really won't notice or care; given than the vast, vast majority of them had zero interest in what the EU was or did prior to having their gullibility manipulated by Cummings.

Given many of them's turkey-voting-for-Christmas Tory vote, I actually expect them to accept a 10 quid a week pay boost to, say have the right to strike taken from them. Or the loss of maternity pay. Or sick pay.

So they'll certainly not notice or care when the product they're manufacturing (assuming they're still in a job) has to meet EU standards in order to be exported to the EU. Rule taking. But they won't associate it with 'losing Sovrintee'.

We have always had to meet EU standards to export goods there. So does the US, China and Japan. Likewise, we have to meet US standards to export there. No problem at all. Now, we get to make our own standards to suit us, and the EU will have to meet our standards.

And despite the depredations of our useless politicians, UK unemployment is well below EU average, including France, Italy, Spain, Greece and many more.

Now, we get to make our own standards to suit us, and the EU will have to meet our standards.
All that lovely new red tape.
So Proud.

over the next couple of years lots of tiny incremental steps will bring it back into the Single Market by stealth.

I think that this wish is fanciful.

It seems to me that there are too many of us that would be aware of any steps to retangle ourselves with the EU , Nigel Farage , Brexit Party, Leave.EU, ERG ect will be keeping their beady eyes on it still.

If the Incremental steps are to preserve British jobs, will you oppose them ?

• rules of origin
• reciprocal recognition
• phytosanitary standards

I repeat: We have always had to meet EU standards to export goods there.

Yes, all that red tape we got rid of to enable UK to commence a mass vaccination program while the incompetent EU was dithering on the sidelines.

We have always had to meet EU standards to export goods there.
So if the UK cannot make its own standards, what is the point?
Rees Mogg was explicit that he wanted to lower the UKs standards to make it more competitive ..

Yes, all that red tape we got rid of to enable UK to commence a mass vaccination program while the incompetent EU was dithering on the sidelines.
Each of the EU countries is sovereign and deciding on its own strategy for COVID vaccination.
Other EU countries have handled much of the situation a lot better than the UK

I repeat: We have always had to meet EU standards to export goods there.

The time was, they were our own too, and we may even had a hand in writing the standard. Now if we want to reduce our own standards, we won't be able to export to the EU. If we want to increase our standard above an EU minimum, I can't see that being a problem.

Ah all the red tape got rid of to introduce a vaccine created by Germans of Turkish descent, made in Belgium by an American company. Yep we were really on the ball there. Meanwhile the UK created vaccine only got approval a few days ago.

The UK's approach to vaccination, notably mixing doses of two different vaccines, is causing some consternation internationally.

www.nytimes.com/2021/01/01/health/coronavirus-vaccines-britain.html

“There are no data on this idea whatsoever,” said John Moore, a vaccine expert at Cornell University. Officials in Britain “seem to have abandoned science completely now and are just trying to guess their way out of a mess.”

You just can't win, if the UK was lagging behind in secure the Pfizer vaccine the uproar on here would of been immense and thread after thread of how incompetent our government is and then blame brexit too.

Instead they secured it and at least its being rolled out but you just can't be happy that we did something well for once.

I for one am glad our government managed to get hold of the Pfizer vaccine and its being used, we did something right and we should recognise our successes instead of always trying to run ourselves down

Its always a race to the bottom whether its about wages or trashing our country.

There will always be many who would just love to destroy instead of build up

@Jaypreen

over the next couple of years lots of tiny incremental steps will bring it back into the Single Market by stealth.

I think that this wish is fanciful.

It seems to me that there are too many of us that would be aware of any steps to retangle ourselves with the EU , Nigel Farage , Brexit Party, Leave.EU, ERG ect will be keeping their beady eyes on it still.

That's as may be. But who will actually care, given that a) all but nobody cared about the EU prior to Cummings' rabble rousing.

Very little of this was about 'the EU'; but was entirely about 'shoving one to The Man'.

The vast majority of Leave voters couldn't care less about the minutes of trade deals. Many have barely given the EU a second thought since June 23rd.

So Garage and the ERG are going to have their work cut out, rousing the rabble again. Especially as many now realise they were played.

@ListeningQuietly

It will be interesting to see how this all pans out in those in the former Labour heartlands who voted for Brexit and Tory in the last election. Ah, the myth of the Red Wall. The electoral data is very clear - 2019 was merely the tipping on a 20 year change. NOTHING Labour can do will win those seats back at least until it recognises the REAL reasons, which it does not

The other problem is: which political party will grant a referendum on rejoining?
Rejoining will be by whimper not bang.
Tiny steps of attrition - see Switzerland

On the path to rejoining I agree with LQ here, small steps.

Quite possibly "2 forward, 1 back" for years from the POV of those who want to see rejoin (which, for anyone who's not a Westministenders regular but posting here, I don't).

I'm not even sure there would be another referendum. I can see a return to the 1992-2009 ish (esp post EU constitution in 2005) strategy where the EU made incremental changes designed so as to avoid future referendums.

Especially as many now realise they were played. Somewhat arrogant, if I may say so. Who are you to say they had no interest in it or that they were gullible? An awful lot of people or "Turkeys" as you seem to prefer, who don't regularly vote took the trouble to turn out because they felt so strongly. Who are you to dismiss them.

Besides the ref result, we've seen Nigel Farage's anti-EU party sweep the EU elections and a thumping majority for the political party who want to "get Brexit done". I see very little basis for your rather nasty views about brexit voters.

Also, you obviously misspelled sovereignty for a reason, to make a point. Could you please explain the joke? Over my head I'm afraid.