So, how long will it be before we join again?

[BlackForestCake]

Will you be supporting the campaign to join the EU?

It will be good for business to do away with a lot of pointless red tape at customs, and our people will benefit from being able to travel, study and work in 28 countries.

I was a remainer, but now we are out I think we need to give it a good go.

But what exactly does that mean? We have to carry on with day to day life, but members of my family have immediately lost out, so I am certainly not going to start cheering for it.

@Emilyontmoor it won't be just england as wales are not asking for independence and ate very different from scotland , scotland are also several years away from being independent at least
But you are ok for an independent scotland but not independent uk from the eu , why is one acceptable but the other isn't

@Peregrina how have members of your family lost out ?

Donewithitall I made no mention of the attitudes amongst BAME leavers or even leavers in general! I made it quite clear I was talking about people I know.

However your post is predictable. The Straw man has become very much the main mode of Leaver argument since 2016.

And yes I will continue to campaign to bring liberal values into government as I have done since the 70s, when it was apartheid we were “moaning* about. It’s called being politically active.

Bluntness
What does Give it a go entail?
What should we be doing ?

I will never forgive the people who voted to limit my children's life chances, and will campaign tirelessly to get their rights back.

I think giving it a go entails negotiating as many agreements as possible with the rest of the world on a number of different fronts that benefit everyone.

The matter of the EU has been toxic for 50 years, not just the last decade. It has terminated more prime ministers than not.

Far from it. The UK was only in for 47 years for a start plus 11 month's transition. The 1975 referendum returned a positive yes vote to staying in which was significantly higher than the vote for Leave was in 2016.

As for PMs - Well, it certainly wrecked Major's PM ship, Cameron stood still and asked the ERG to stab him in the front please. May's it wrecked, ably assisted by Boris Johnson. It may yet wreck Johnson's.
With Thatcher it's debatable - primarily the poll tax is what weakened her and IMO set Scotland on the road to Independence.

As for Heath, Callaghan, Blair and Brown it hardly affected them.
Wilson was a crafty so and so and made sure he didn't call a referendum until he got the result he wanted. He resigned very suddenly but it was later found that it was due to being in the early stages of dementia.

How many of my family have lost out? Three of them so far. Luckily the grandsons are entitled to Irish passports, so they are OK.

Potentially a fourth if I count my nephew's son who is a musician and will now find it difficult to tour with EU orchestras.

Jaypreen "Yes, all that red tape we got rid of to enable UK to commence a mass vaccination program while the incompetent EU was dithering on the sidelines."

Or did they stand back and watch?

But given the EU comprises 27 other nations, did each decide individually to look and learn? Given how much we've just taught them about the 'Benefits' of leaving the EU😂?

While a 2 dose vaccine than needed to be given, was it 21 days apart? Is now being given months apart?

That 'dithering'?

[quote donewithitalltodayandxmas]@Peregrina how have members of your family lost out ? [/quote]

I can step in there.

My DH is going to lose his job as his company is relocating its HQ to France; my son's Erasmus ambition for Y2 in Denmark has been cancelled; our retirement plans have been destroyed.

Enough for you?

@Bluntness100

I think giving it a go entails negotiating as many agreements as possible with the rest of the world on a number of different fronts that benefit everyone.

But this Deal doesn't 'benefit everyone', does it? You know, the easiest trade deal in history? Oven ready?

It barely touches on Services which is 80% of our trade, for a start.

How will these marvellous new deals be better? 🤔

@Bluntness100

I think giving it a go entails negotiating as many agreements as possible with the rest of the world on a number of different fronts that benefit everyone.

Trade deals will not bring back what my children have lost.

The right to study anywhere across the Continent they live in
The right to work anywhere across the Continent they live in
The ability to watch shit videos on their phones right across the country they live in without spending a fortune.
The right to visit friends in other neighbouring countries without needing a visa.

Until my kids have that back
I do not give a shit about trade deals with far flung countries that were always fairy dust.

Why is giving up some sovereignty to the rest of the world, which we do when we made deals, such a wonderful thing but an absolute no no with our nearest neighbours?

The EU is living on borrowed time, there will be nothing to rejoin.

It barely touches on Services which is 80% of our trade, for a start.

I've seen this figure quoted a few times and I think it comes from confusing our total GDP breakdown with exports/imports to the EU. In 2019, exports to the EU were £ 171/124B and imports were £ 267/106B, goods/services respectively.

@user1493494961

The EU is living on borrowed time, there will be nothing to rejoin.

In what way?

It was interesting reading the analysis in the Economist this morning.
Brits have never understood that the EU is about preventing war between nations by making them States within a larger state
(Like the USA and Germany)

The EU has its faults, but its core aim of making everybody safer and richer is working.

End of the day its done. Move on yeah right.

Gronky I think you are the one who is confused. As we have seen from the service companies who have transferred into the EU, a lot of our total service economy is underpinned by our role as a gateway to the EU. We have lost that marketing advantage in global markets. The EU will want to erode it still further, at the moment they need some degree of continuity in money and other markets because London has been the epicentre of the European service economy. But they can and will tip the playing field to leverage their advantage of being fully in the single market. In the market I am involved in in Asia there has been a clear shift to deal with service companies that will have a secure long term foothold within the EU, so that they can access the whole market. It has already happened but will accelerate if U.K. service companies are perceived to not have long term access. The government is banking on that deregulating the city will result in making up for what is lost with allowing a return to the profits made by buccaneering players exploiting other global opportunities as they did before the crash - they only really have the ear for these unethical operators rather than ethical big businesses - what could possibly go wrong? Remember the service economy is not just financial services but other activities like business consultancy, accountancy, advertising, creative industries. Many are already truly global businesses even if their brand is British. So they can and will shift their activities to where the playing field is most favourable, and they will take with them that share of the global economy.

We have always had to meet EU standards to export goods there. So if the UK cannot make its own standards, what is the point?

The UK can - now once more - make its own standards. All companies that export to a foreign market have to comply with the regs of those foreign markets. That is normal all over the world. But that doesn't mean the country those companies are from automatically have to adopt those reg's for their own domestic market - unless they're in the EU.

British companies that export to the EU will still have to comply with EU reg's. Companies that don't export - the vast majority of them -will simply have to comply with domestic reg's. In many cases that'll save companies a great deal in time and money.

I would have thought that someone whose chief contribution to this thread has been sneering at the supposed ignorance of Turkey-like Leave voters would already know all that. You didn't, did you?

Jaypreen
I think you rather misunderstand how standards work.

Big companies will only buy from suppliers who can guarantee that every part of their process is compliant.
So even the small companies will have to work to that level.

Farmers will not raise animals to two different sets of welfare standards - because rules of origin terms would debar all of their stock.

The UK will be utterly a rule taker
rather than a rule maker
what a result

"Yes, all that red tape we got rid of to enable UK to commence a mass vaccination program while the incompetent EU was dithering on the sidelines."

The real danger now, is with an untested mix and max regime, that people will lose confidence in the process and either become anti-vax or will adopt a wait and see approach. So well done Brexiters for rushing in to try to make cheap Brexit capital out of it.

mix n match that meant to say.

Emilyontmoor, thank you for that summary. I took 'trade' to mean EU trade, since the matter being discussed is an agreement (or lack thereof) with the EU. If the EU is capable of doing what you describe, it will be interesting to see how effective their efforts are and how asymmetric, given the ratios of what we import from them; especially as services are less bound by (though not entirely free from) geographic limitations.

Gronky
The focus on trade and imports and exports is still too narrow.

The City of London is the centre for multiple worldwide financial services - derivatives, currencies, futures, hedging.
The export part is merely the fee for the service
but if those services move out of London, the impact on the UKs tax take will be significant and negative.
So anything that limits the ability of the UKs lawyers and accountants and consultants to work within their accreditation and PII in other European countries will impact the UK.

It will not be a simple clear impact
more death by a thousand cuts

And other EU Cities that have always resented the influence of London (and wanted to clamp down on London's money laundering) will be able to set the rules to gradually throttle businesses