So, how long will it be before we join again?

[BlackForestCake]

Will you be supporting the campaign to join the EU?

It will be good for business to do away with a lot of pointless red tape at customs, and our people will benefit from being able to travel, study and work in 28 countries.

British companies that export to the EU will still have to comply with EU reg's. Companies that don't export - the vast majority of them -will simply have to comply with domestic reg's. In many cases that'll save companies a great deal in time and money

uh? what standards are these? france uses different power and electrical wiring to the UK in fact most of europe does, we drive on the left, speed limits in miles....

Or do you mean H & S & employment and a reduction to the min? EU sets the minimum standard, in many cases the UK (and others exceed these)
There are some rules on procurement and tendering that affect non exporting companies but this is to prevent money laundering and to enable competitiveness.

I get what leavers believe will now happen but the reality is the EU is not to blame for shite domestic policy... for decades.

ListeningQuietly, I think the key factor in this issue will be that the current loss of recognition is bidirectional.

Gronky Yes I think the government are also banking on the centre of gravity being too firmly fixed in London in terms of skills competencies etc. It’s interesting because up until Brexit there were three main financial service centres in the world, New York, London and Hong Kong. Now two face very real damage to their competitive advantages.

And the EU has time on its side.....

The irony is that Service economy was Thatcher’s great project. For good or ill she reengineered the economy on to London and services because she spotted that was where we could build global competitive advantage and access to the single market was part of that strategy. We have actually sacrificed the Conservative focus on economic strategy for populism, I am not at all sure it even qualifies for the term Conservative.

Gronky
You are spot on that the recognition is bidirectional
BUT
English is the language of business.
Biden is inaugurated in a couple of weeks
Dublin are champing at the bit

and many EU Universities teach masters courses in English
(the one my child was looking at is aimed at a worldwide audience but has annual fees of EE900 versus £18000 in the UK ... even the visa and house rental and everything else would have made it worth the travel, but Brexit intervened)

I am not at all sure it even qualifies for the term Conservative

I think Conservatism (and any broad political descriptor) is somewhat relative to the era and overall political landscape in which it exists, Emilyontmoor.

ListeningQuietly, I'm not as certain as some seem to be that Biden's imminent presidency places much of a damper on our Transatlantic relations. Other than the Irish border, I'm not aware of him saying too much one way or the other on future relations but he does have bigger issues at hand. I recall people saying that the Special Relationship was doomed when Clinton took office.

But 'other than the Irish border' is an absolute biggie for an American who strongly identifies as Irish and a Tory Government which was going to renege on an international Treaty which helped to protect the GFA. Which the US helped to draw up.

Clinton had been a Rhodes scholar in Oxford, so probably had an affection for the UK.

@Sarahandduck18

When Scotland become independent there will be a referendum on rejoining. That will be interesting...

Scotland can't join until they have had their own central bank and currency, which has maintained a stable exchange rate with the euro for at least the previous two years. Scotland also would have to have low levels of inflation and public debt. This is all basic criteria for joining the EU. I can't see them being able to join any time soon, no matter how much they may want to.

I could see Scotland becoming Independent and with that the promise of rejoining the EU in the future would probably be enough for a couple of years. Then they could start to re-negotiate - opting back into Erasmus would be an obvious starter.

But I don't pretend to know how it will play out.

Scotland can't join until they have had their own central bank and currency, which has maintained a stable exchange rate with the euro for at least the previous two years. Scotland also would have to have low levels of inflation and public debt. This is all basic criteria for joining the EU. I can't see them being able to join any time soon, no matter how much they may want to.

That's actually incorrect.

Scotland can't join the Eurozone until it's been able to prove 2 years of a stable currency and a central bank. It can join the EU provided it meets the Communautaire Acquis (ie has aligned its laws with the the required EU ones) which it currently does because the UK did - and it has already committed to continuing to do so for as long as it can for as many laws as it can (but WM may override it ). It just has to commit to joining the Euro as and when it meets the financial criteria - but it could choose to what Sweden does, which is always "just" miss the criteria and therefore is "unable" to change to the Euro.

BTW: the UK couldn't join the Eurozone even if it wanted to, as it fails the criteria (or it did the last time I checked).

20 years.

Gronky What passes for the government’s current economic policy, the plans to become a state sponsored tech giant, was devised by someone who was never a Conservative, only ever saw them as useful idiots, a one trick pony in terms of pressing the buttons of populism. He is probably, as someone said, being the fanboy he is, walking the length of Palo Alto with a sandwich board touting for a job. Sections of the Tories were only too happy to hitch their wagons to the populist train in pursuit of power whilst those who were not were either thrown out or learnt to keep their powder dry. Boris like Trump was quite happy to adopt the flag of convenience, whether metropolitan liberal or right wing to get the power and attention they crave. That is not political ideology. There is no longer a coherent political strategy for governing the country as the current mess of U turns shows.

Peregrina, I didn't mean to suggest my certainty in the opposite. I think there's a little too much tea leaf reading going on. I don't know if you recall the supposed significance dowsed from an article supposedly listing the order in which Biden phoned national European leaders but it seems like a good example.

Emilyontmoor, I think the question of how Boris ascended will be best answered by the nature of his departure.

I do remember the order which Biden is supposed to have phoned European Leaders. Johnson fans swore he was the first - the lists published by the US was alphabetical as I recall, and in short no one has the foggiest. But which EU country he sets in first will be a fact.

And whereas Theresa May broke her neck being the first to invite Trump to these shores, I don't see the Johnson administration doing the same to his successor.

@prettybird

"BTW: the UK couldn't join the Eurozone even if it wanted to, as it fails the criteria (or it did the last time I checked)."

Further to your post, the chances of Scotland meeting the criteria for many many years is slim as they have a budget deficit circa 10% which is far worse than Greece. As an independent country there would be horrendous pain in reducing it, although they would have to in some way once subsidies arising from the Barnet formula from the rest of the U.K. (England) ceased.

Scottish independence is a little like Brexit but far worse. The awful reality is not apparent yet in that an independent Scotland is not able to sustain anywhere near the level of public spending they do currently but this would be the devil in the detail once the romantic notion had been voted on

Why would we want to? I don’t want to, I’ll give you a starting reason:

1. We no longer have a tampon tax

1. The live export of animals has been stopped

That’s two reasons, obviously but so important to me personally.

Pity the Tories voted against removing the tampon tax then five years ago isn't it? Just so that they can get a cheap boast about the wonders of Brexit.

I don't know about the export of live animals, whether this is something they could have done before, or another Brexit boast, but now outside the EU they can't bring any pressure to bear on the other 27 countries, if it's something that they believe matters.

It astounds me that a trading nation has chosen to put up barriers with its nearest neighbours.

@Peregrina

Pity the Tories voted against removing the tampon tax then five years ago isn't it? Just so that they can get a cheap boast about the wonders of Brexit.

I don't know about the export of live animals, whether this is something they could have done before, or another Brexit boast, but now outside the EU they can't bring any pressure to bear on the other 27 countries, if it's something that they believe matters.

It astounds me that a trading nation has chosen to put up barriers with its nearest neighbours.

I do know that the EU wouldn’t allow us to remove the tampon tax, that’s a fact regardless of what the Conservatives voted.

I also know about the export of live animals. We have now stopped it, thank goodness, whereas the EU permitted it. This on its own is enough to make me cheer that we have left!

I do know that the EU wouldn’t allow us to remove the tampon tax, that’s a fact regardless of what the Conservatives voted.

FWIW the EU VAT rules were changing

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01128/

@Peregrina
*
Pity the Tories voted against removing the tampon tax then five years ago isn't it? Just so that they can get a cheap boast about the wonders of Brexit.

I don't know about the export of live animals, whether this is something they could have done before, or another Brexit boast, but now outside the EU they can't bring any pressure to bear on the other 27 countries, if it's something that they believe matters.

It astounds me that a trading nation has chosen to put up barriers with its nearest neighbours.*

The Tories didn't vote against removing the tampon tax. Under EU law you cannot reduce the rate of VAT on an item once set (ie 5%)

You could not stop live exports before as this was interfering in the single market rules as it advantaged home producers.

Another example is the banning of electric pulse fishing and huge trawlers that wiped out loads of fish not being fished for and other sea animals. This could not be done whilst in the single market. It can be done under the FT agreement as long as it applies to all fishing boats, British included which it does

In reality I don't think most people wanted to leave the EU except the most hardened Brexiteer, they wanted to stop unlimited immigration. The EU refused as it is a clear principle of the single market somBrexit came about.

What is ridiculous is despite Theresa May banging on about reducing immigration, the immigration she could have previously influenced (ie non eu migration) she did very little about and it now stands at its highest levels. We are still allowing the import of.poor, illiterate and vulnerable young girls from Pakistan and Bangladesh for marriage purposes that are frequently treated very very badly

The UK is no longer legally bound by EU laws which have seen sanitary products subject to five different rates of VAT since 1973 – the latest of which was 5%, effective since January 2001.
Although the UK was bound by the EU VAT Directive, Parliament approved the move to a zero rate, with a provision included in Finance Act 2016 for such an eventuality. The UK also established the Tampon Tax Fund in 2015 to donate money to charity equivalent to the amount of VAT revenue collected, with £47 million donated since then to charities working with vulnerable women and girls.
The zero rate was legislated for in the Finance Act 2016, enabling the change to come in to force as soon as the UK has discretion to do so under its legal obligations.
While the UK was a Member State of the EU, we were unable to apply any rate of VAT lower than a reduced rate of 5% to sanitary products because of the EU VAT Directive.

Live animals commonly have to endure excessively long journeys during exports, causing distress and injury. Previously, EU rules prevented any changes to these journeys, but leaving the EU has enabled the UK Government to pursue these plans which would prevent unnecessary suffering of animals during transport and see us become the first country in Europe to end this practice.

Thank goodness!

While the UK was a Member State of the EU, we were unable to apply any rate of VAT lower than a reduced rate of 5% to sanitary products because of the EU VAT Directive.

That's absolutely correct, but TBF the "EU" were aware of the issue since they were proposing allowing a zero rate for some products as part of an complete overhaul of the VAT system.

It's quite possible the "tampon tax" would have gone, Brexit or not.

@notimagain

While the UK was a Member State of the EU, we were unable to apply any rate of VAT lower than a reduced rate of 5% to sanitary products because of the EU VAT Directive.

That's absolutely correct, but TBF the "EU" were aware of the issue since they were proposing allowing a zero rate for some products as part of an complete overhaul of the VAT system.

It's quite possible the "tampon tax" would have gone, Brexit or not.

Possibly, yes, but a tax has been on sanitary products since 1973 due to EU rules. That is utterly disgraceful.

We are still allowing the import of.poor, illiterate and vulnerable young girls from Pakistan and Bangladesh for marriage purposes that are frequently treated very very badly

Can you provide quantified evidence of this? That shows the scale in terms of total immigration of people coming here to live and work?

Because I personally know a significant number of Asian spouses of British men who, in spite of having successful careers in their home countries, are not even granted visas to stay here beyond the usual tourist visa so that they can meet and get to know their families better, let elderly grandparents have time with their grandchildren etc. That is let alone have any chance of their spouses ever being able to move back to the U.K. and bring them with them. The Home Office have been actively discriminating against Asian women married to British men in this way for several years now influenced it seems by stereotypes like the one you are perpetuating here, along with the “Thai bride”. Whilst it may have happened on a small scale I find it hard to believe poor Asian girls are able to be bought here in any numbers to be exploited when couples who are in love matches are effectively exiled by cruel and discriminatory (both in terms of gender and race) Home Office policy.

@Sertchgi123

This is a proposal on live animal exports, subject to consultation.

It doesn't affect animals being exported for breeding purposes or for restocking, recently UK animals found to have been slaughtered in a ME country after the EU importer sold them on, there is no min time to keep an animal sent abroad for restocking, which could then be sent for slaughter a few days later.
Doesn't stop long journeys within the UK either, we haven't enough local slaughterhouses.

The tampon tax is a very small amount on a relatively cheap product, i appreciate the principal but the reality is poverty is the driver not a few pence on a product.... food is zero rated but it doesn't stop 1000s of families being unable to feed themselves despite being in work.

Brexit makes the country poorer (OBR figures) even if in 10 years time we are better off, poorer families have to survive those 10 years.