The Brexit Arms

[BrandySours]

And so it is done....! 🙌

Finally!

🥳 🎉 🇬🇧 🍾 🥂

Merry Xmas!!

Aria The implication that greater employment rights were due to the EU is more ridiculous remainer propaganda. Many times the UK has been well ahead of the EU with Examples such as The Equal Pay Act and Race Relations Act in the 70s.

little or no impact on average employment or unemployment of existing workers.

The key word here is average ..... this fact (as I’m sure you know as it’s in the bloody report but are too disingenuous to write) is only true when you look at the average ...... as the top 25% of earners gains cancel out the bottom 30% losses to cause a net ‘balance’ in the average. You asked for evidence of negative impact on working class and then use disingenuous ‘facts’ when given to you. I agree entirely that the EU is entirely beneficial for European Christian ex-colonial countries and their middle classes. Hence the EU refusing point blank to admit Turkey (too Muslim too brown)

"Your cheap plane and bus tickets weren't enough to improve their lives and prospects here were they. And many of those people couldn't even afford your cheap ticket and the opportunity to bum around that you were able to experience. People won't miss what they couldn't have in the first place"

That, lamentably, is true. Many people lacked the ambition to 'Look outside what they knew'. They accepted their lives, living small lives under limited circumstances. FTR, boat-train tickets weren't that expensive; you just needed to want to do it, I guess.

Plane tickets?? Are you for real? 1978? God, no! Utterly unaffordable. Unlike the £30 Ryanair were charging all through the 2000s to fly you to Berlin 😉

And I certainly didn't 'bum around', I chambermaided, including hosing down the men's' urinals after 'a big night'. 😂 (now!).

Having never experienced the highs and lows, the hard work (and the easy work) - and the bloody good times we had working 😉 in Europe as late teenagers, yourself, I take umbrage at the idea we were 'bumming around'.

What we learned was that there were different ways of being (that didn't involve accepting the norms- and, apparently, poverty, if you say so- of our parents generation).

I'm sorry if you saw that as your immutable lot, but I'm frankly astonished that you haven't moved on from that mindset.

But maybe nostalgia plays a part?....

The implication that greater employment rights were due to the EU is more ridiculous remainer propaganda. Many times the UK has been well ahead of the EU with Examples such as The Equal Pay Act and Race Relations Act in the 70s.
This was in the 1970s, BelleHathor. Since then, if you lived in the same country as I do, lots of things have changed, and I mean labour rights in the UK. The UK is considered one of the most deregulated labour markets in developed economies and a lot has to do with the policies of successive UK governments. In fact, if it wasn't for EU labour standards, UK workers would be far more worse-off today than they would have been if they were not in the EU.

Noname99, I am not sure what you are talking about. I pointed to the different aspects of the findings and then explained that the negative impact on low-wage workers can be attributed to UK policies. You do understand that the MAC study did not factor in the role of the regulatory framework, including protections or lack thereof for those that are UK-based. As for your point about European Christian ex-colonial countries and their middle classes, I am not sure what to say: on the one hand, you think that the EU is an imperialist organisation and on the other you want them to enlarge further. It is not clear to me what you are saying.

aria11
Please do not call the gains made with shared parental leave laws a ‘failure.’
It takes TIME for God’s sake to enact social change. The public sector is leading the way with this with more and more men are taking advantage of this. 100 years of gender inequality takes time to change but at least we’ve made a start.

As for the rest, as ever it ah but! Another poster has reminded you of other rights predating your EU but no doubt that will be ah but again.

Anyway ... enough .... I’ve been suckered into answering your nonsense. No don’t if I said that leaning the EU means the end of love animal exports, you’d find a reason to why thus isn’t to do with the EU and somehow the UK’s fault.

However, I note you have no comment to my central point .... how is it acceptable that two plumbers/nurses/accountants with equal qualifications should not be judged on merit but on their country of origin as to whether they deserve freedom of movement to work? Why is that a Polish plumber can travel to Britain to ply their trade and earn a better living than they could in their own country and that is acceptable economic migration but a Kenyan or Nigerian not?

I believe we in the BEGINNING of a journey towards globalism and yes that mean that Germany, France, UK and America (and probably even Russia eventually when their massive natural resource start to run out) will have to step back and stop their protectionist policies and embrace the fact that the rest of the world .... Latin America, Africa, Central Asia will rise up and become equal partners with every country standing it’s own feet, not clubbing together to ensure that the ‘first world’ power remains where it is.

So what, under this Conservative government, is the new direction? What have they got on the table that will improve our lives? The Environment Bill, yes, can see positives in that. Planning reform, not so sure. What else is there that's on their agenda?

• yikes loads of typos! Too tired to type. I’m off before my texting skills fall apart completely. And no point discussing anything with fanatics.

The implication that greater employment rights were due to the EU is more ridiculous remainer propaganda. Many times the UK has been well ahead of the EU with Examples such as The Equal Pay Act and Race Relations Act in the 70s.
Btw, because when I hear the word propaganda from people that don't have a clue, it is quite annoying: France was one of the first countries to introduce equal pay legislation. In fact, it was due to France's insistence that when the European Economic Community was founded in 1957, the principle of equal pay for equal work was named as a key principle (Article 141 of the Treaty of Rome). The UK by the way until the late 1980s refused to include in the legislation scope for claims of equal pay for work of equal value (which are most commonly used today). It was after pressure from the European Commission that the UK legislation was amended to allow for such claims to be made.

However, I note you have no comment to my central point .... how is it acceptable that two plumbers/nurses/accountants with equal qualifications should not be judged on merit but on their country of origin as to whether they deserve freedom of movement to work? Why is that a Polish plumber can travel to Britain to ply their trade and earn a better living than they could in their own country and that is acceptable economic migration but a Kenyan or Nigerian not?

This has been answered by another poster. The UK always had the freedom to do so but refused. Nothing to do with the EU, I am afraid.

As the shared parental leave, I am afraid that the evidence is conclusive and it all has to do again with the way the UK labour market is structured. Good night

@Aria11

5.6 weeks of annual leave in the UK as compared to the EU requirement of 4 weeks; Annual leave was included in the Working Time Directive (before that the UK had no legislation at all).

The right to request flexible working for all employees, as against the EU requirement for the right to request flexible working for parents on return from parental leave; You do realise that Directives establish a floor and not a ceiling of rights, right? It is then up to each EU Member State to decide where the ceiling is. Isn't this something that Brexiteers wanted?

52 weeks of maternity leave, of which 39 weeks are paid – as compared to the 14 weeks of paid maternity leave required by the Pregnant Workers’ Directive. The same rules apply to those who adopt; Same as above

Paternity leave and pay for new dads or a mother’s partner where there are currently no protections from the EU;

Shared Parental Leave and Pay helps promote a greater attachment to the labour market for working parents, particularly women, as it gives working families more choice and flexibility – enabling them to combine work with childcare responsibilities; This has been largely a failure, plenty of reasons for this including the significant pay gap between men and women.

18 weeks of parental leave per parent per child up to a child’s 18th birthday, compared to the EU’s requirement to the age of 8. Again, see above re the point about the function of Directives. In issues that matter mostly to working class people, e.g. wages etc., the UK has tried and succeeded to prioritise economic than social interests.

No point arguing with these Remoaners. Like trying to pin jelly to a wall. If they see a good point made they just move the argument on to something else. Deftly done most of the time but clear as day.

Their view of the UK Government is still akin to Dickens’ Oliver Twist. Laughable.

@Noname99

otellie

It’s quite incredible isn’t it? White middle class ‘socialists’ lecturing the thick working class and brown/black people who made up a sizable proportion lecturing us on what is good for us ..... again. Because of course they know best

I'm lecturing the thick white working class! Please don't conflate that with your 'black/brown' 🤔😳 Many South Asians voted leave for a very good reason: visas. They were smart enough to realise that a decimation of the EU workers would leave big gaps in labour many 'working class white Brits' would be unwilling to fill.

Smart move on their part. 100% better reasoning than Sovrintee.

FGS .... I do not want them to enlarge further I think it’s an appalling anachronistic hideous throw back to colonial powers and I hope it disintegrates however, as I’m not Scottish, I do not believe that I have the right to tell them what to do. If they want to be part of the EU more than part of the UK then they should have the right to decide this.

No point arguing with these Remoaners. Like trying to pin jelly to a wall. If they see a good point made they just move the argument on to something else. Deftly done most of the time but clear as day.

Where exactly did you see this? It's so easy labelling someone and not offering any credible argument to the discussion.

@Noname99

No you need to meet the people in my world. And fingers crossed as the BLM movement (which I totally respect & respect hugely) was set up as a single vitally important movement against a specific issue but is starting to make white Christian imperialism think a little continues, i hope that the younger generation so taken in by the EU argument are already starting to see what how wrong it is. The fact I’m being increasingly asked to speak at more and more school & uni events gives me really hope that their European white brainwashing is starting to be eroded.

For a lot of non-Christian, brown people living here in the UK and those who’ve read a book or too and gleaned some form of world view and education in the last few years, the vote was leave is a progressive step because the EU represents the ultimate in white Christian privilege, imperialism and exceptionalism. A club made especially to ensure that the world order of white Christian dominance is never challenged by the inferior folk from Europe's ex-colonies. One of the EU’s purpose for being is to ensure that the EU border is impenetrable.... freedom of movement but only for your Christian white brethren. And I’m not talking about refugees which is a different topic.. I’m talking about the right to live and work where you choose. Please explain to me why it is morally, ethically or in anyway ok for Kenyan nurse/plumber/accountant who has the exact same qualifications and experience as a Spanish equivalent to immediately, AUTOMATICALLY be put behind the Spanish every time? Why is economic migration acceptable only from other predominantly white Christian countries?

The EU trade rules ensure preferential treatment of each other whilst occasionally throwing the countries pillaged by European imperialism the bones of ’aid’ but no invite to the top table, no chance of getting out from under the boot. Remainers fake incredulity and deny .... apparently it’s entirely coincidental that the EU is made up of white Christian countries and not at all racist that brown non Christians are not only not allowed to join but actively discriminated against. Perhaps it’s time to educate yourselves. Just read a little. It won’t take long ..... European imperialism.... it’s a fairly well documented subject and the EU solely existed to perpetuate it. How it’s ok to have favourable trade rules for this already privilege group? How is that not white privilege and Europeans protectionism to the max and not inherently institutionally racist.

The world is finally maybe hopefully changing .....the black lives matters movement, the realisation of some more enlightened so called first world people that they are not first world due to some (Christian) god given right or intellectually superiority but that they are only there off the backs (literally) of black and brown people due to the devastation and overwhelming damage that white Christian imperialism has done to the rest of the world.

So maybe, just maybe, some of us are celebrating Britain leaving the cosy white man club and embracing the rest of the world as partners worthy of at least equal consideration ....a sovereign nation willing to extend that same privilege to others rather than a bully boy exclusive club..... even if it does mean you might have to join a fucking queue at border control or already rich over privileged middle class uni students no longer get their Euramus year abroad paid for because it certainly did fuck all for the working class and meant no uni places for African / Asian students unless your parents can pay exorbitant fees which would require earning what would be the top 0.1% salary in those countries.

Touching, but deeply naive.

Many people voted Leave because they feel threatened by non-white skin. By people speaking forrin.

Believe me, from what I've seen of the Leave Massif, multiculturalism was nowhere on their agenda.

Though I find it sweetly touching that you think it was.

We are still waiting, by the way, for the evidence that you have about the negative impact of the EU on the working class.

'We' being those who have jumped onto a pub thread to bore the rest of us rigid with the same old tired, tedious, done-to-fucking death insults and 'education' as they've done relentlessly for nearly 5 years

For fucks sake 🤦🏻‍♀️

"Please explain to me why it is morally, ethically or in anyway ok for Kenyan nurse/plumber/accountant who has the exact same qualifications and experience as a Spanish equivalent to immediately, AUTOMATICALLY be put behind the Spanish every time? "

I grant you this. But the reason is, somewhat obviously that we were part of a union of countries that, as part of membership, were required to accept equivalence. And the easternmost edges were allowed in to form a bolster against an increasingly belligerent Russia.

Had you worked that out?

And, here's a really hard pill to swallow- some qualifications in some rather less regulated countries are - are you ready? Bought.

And since when has morally and ethically come into employment practice?? When economically and regulatory-safe is an option?

I am a very long in the tooth HCP. It has only been in the last 3-odd years that I have found myself aghast at some of the practices of some of my 'new' colleagues. Some actively harm you. But you don't know because I've either stepped in, or stepped away in order not to be implicated.

Such staff have been 'blind-eyed' by our regulatory body, due to Tory panic about NHS shortages (caused by Tory austerity and a willingness to plunder the EU and the third world rather than train our own. Bursary, anyone?).

Be careful what you wish for.

And so, another Brexit Arms thread comes to a close - jumped on & abused by the same old crowd, who just cannot bear to see Leave supporters chatting amicably amongst themselves

Heaven forfend that they should leave us in peace for one thread - the first in almost a year 🤷🏻‍♀️

I shall be taking another break from MN after this thread ends - and I doubt I'll ever be back browsing the Brexit boards 🙄

To all the old Arms regulars that popped in & said hello, thank you for this last catch up!

It was a looong & bumpy road to get here, but we did it!

We left the EU, and got a trade agreement - despite every bit of political chicanery and active subversion by the anti-Brexit mob 🙌

Democracy prevailed in the end, thank goodness!

I look forward to a bright & positive future for 🇬🇧

Happy New Year to my fellow travellers 🥂
And #HappyBrexit 🍾🙌🇬🇧

@Otellie

I am talking about the opportunity for cheap air tickets and bumming around Europe Aria. Not student exchange. Which is going to be replaced by Turing for little Felicity.

Why have you no faith in Shania being able to access (as yet completely conceptual) Turing? You seem to imagine only 'little Felicity' can access it.

Why have you no faith in the young of the working class? Why do you blame the EU for this, not your own narrow life-view? Lack of curiosity?

Everything you say digs you deeper into your own class war as to why you voted Leave.

Really?

Don't you think successive right wing governments destroyed working class communities all over the margins of this country, which is why you think Erasmus is only for 'little Felicity'? Why were you duped into not demanding the same opportunity for Shania? Why do you think 'Brussels' denied her that?

And before I'm picked up, this poster used 'little Felicity' to notate social class; so did I with Shania. She started that game, I responded.

Terry "Being in the EU didn’t improve the lives of the working class in the UK. The EU attracted other country’s working class to the UK and improved their lives. On the whole the EU didn’t help many of the UK working class. I know you will blame the UK government but the EU did not specifically improve the lives of the UK working class."

So why didn't they get off their arses and go and get better paying work on the EU?

Well, having been a regular in the 'Brexit Arms'' since 2016 I have had the pleasure (?) of reading many, many remainer posts. There is one thing that I would like to thank them for and that is the reconfirmation that I ticked the right bloody box!!

Oxford Vaccine being rolled out on Monday (530,000 doses) with more to follow by end of the month - go us!!

On that very positive note I would like to end by saying thanks😍🍷 to Brandy for stepping up as Landlady, it flew by.

To the rest of the 'Armers' posting and lurking. Here's a toast🍷🍷 to a new year of hope and opportunity - onwards and upwards.

Goodnight

@Miljea

Terry "Being in the EU didn’t improve the lives of the working class in the UK. The EU attracted other country’s working class to the UK and improved their lives. On the whole the EU didn’t help many of the UK working class. I know you will blame the UK government but the EU did not specifically improve the lives of the UK working class."

So why didn't they get off their arses and go and get better paying work on the EU?

Where would they have been paid better in the EU?

@HeyHeyImABeLeaver

Well, having been a regular in the 'Brexit Arms'' since 2016 I have had the pleasure (?) of reading many, many remainer posts. There is one thing that I would like to thank them for and that is the reconfirmation that I ticked the right bloody box!!

Oxford Vaccine being rolled out on Monday (530,000 doses) with more to follow by end of the month - go us!!

On that very positive note I would like to end by saying thanks😍🍷 to Brandy for stepping up as Landlady, it flew by.

To the rest of the 'Armers' posting and lurking. Here's a toast🍷🍷 to a new year of hope and opportunity - onwards and upwards.

Goodnight

Hear! hear! 🍾🥂🥂! My sentiments too, thanks for all the threads Brandy and all the contributions from the regulars 🥰😍

There is one thing that I would like to thank them for and that is the reconfirmation that I ticked the right bloody box

I didn't tick that box. But looking at the disgusting snobby attitude here, towards groups of people in poverty, I'm glad you did. And I'm glad you won it.

Yes thank you Brandy and all you brave regulars since 2016

Cheers everyone - - to this new year of hope and opportunity

We finally are our own agency!