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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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DGRossetti · 18/12/2020 14:29

Meanwhile, in an irony swerving move, Liz Truss:

twitter.com/greg_jenner/status/1339658650051375106/photo/1

I particularly enjoyed people handing her her arse ...

Blue passports, anyone ?

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
DGRossetti · 18/12/2020 14:30

ps. #BrexitDisaster is trending (again) twitter.com/search?q=%23BrexitDisaster&src=trend_click&f=live&vertical=trends

HannibalHayes · 18/12/2020 14:34

Ground zero for Brexit literally smells of piss.

DGRossetti · 18/12/2020 14:40

@HannibalHayes

Ground zero for Brexit literally smells of piss.
So all the people who voted for Brexit in that whingefest ... how do they feel now ? In particular, what part of "Project Fear" they were ignoring do they feel was wrong ?

Oh, guess what, no one is asking, no one is answering.

It's very hard to have any time for someone who was warned, chose to ignore the warnings and is now a little inconvenienced by it. Especially when an entire generation lost their rights in the process.

Fuck 'em.

I will share that article. For people to laugh at.

HannibalHayes · 18/12/2020 14:47

Yes, I was hoping to find out which way all those moaning voted.

I suspect we can guess. We've got at least a 60% chance after all...

OchonAgusOchonO · 18/12/2020 14:53

@HannibalHayes

Guy Verhofstadt doing more for the British people than it's own government...
I do love the response by Brian: More EU students come to the world ranked British unis than British students go to lower ranked EU unis.

and by BlackOlivesMatter (sounds like a lovely person): Yes, it’s only Guy hoping for reciprocation to better English Universities. We should exchange with the US as together we make up the top 22 universities and the EU has none in the top 22. Zero.

They obviously fail to recognise the irony that one of the key measures in determining rank is how international the university is. One of the measures of this is the proportion of international students and faculty. The rankings are also quite subjective as a lot of it involves canvassing international colleagues to recommend your university.

I'm also not sure where the olive guy thinks Switzerland is as they have 2 in the top 22 in the QS rankings, 1 in the top 22 in the Times rankings and 1 in the top 22 of the Shanghai rankings. He's also wrong about the EU not having any in the top 22 as France has one on the top 22 in the Shanghai rankings.

DGRossetti · 18/12/2020 14:54

@HannibalHayes

Yes, I was hoping to find out which way all those moaning voted.

I suspect we can guess. We've got at least a 60% chance after all...

You don't have to read far - curiously the noisiest whingers are ... Brexiteers.

Meanwhile in other news ...

www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/industrie/autobauer-no-deal-brexit-bmw-koennte-die-mini-produktion-verlagern/26724110.html

Munich The BMW group is preparing intensively for EU customs barriers with Great Britain . An exit without a trade agreement could hardly be compensated for, said CFO Nicolas Peter on Wednesday in Munich. "That costs us a three-digit million sum a year, and we will have to react to that." Corresponding plans are in the drawer. These should primarily affect mini-production.

First of all, the minis produced in Great Britain would be more expensive for all customers, said the CFO. “In the long term, we have to decide what the customs situation is like. We are flexible with the Mini. "

Peter pointed out that the Leipzig factory will produce the Mini Countryman from 2024 and that other models can be built in Germany . In addition, the Munich-based company agreed a mini-production with the manufacturer Great Wall in China in November.

Brexit has been a constant topic for BMW for years: With Mini and Rolls-Royce , two out of three brands are based in Great Britain. This makes BMW one of the largest industrial investors and exporters. The group has invested around eleven billion pounds since the turn of the millennium, and the island is the fourth largest market for Munich.

RedToothBrush · 18/12/2020 14:54

@HannibalHayes

Yes, I was hoping to find out which way all those moaning voted.

I suspect we can guess. We've got at least a 60% chance after all...

The guy who got bottles of piss thrown up out of lorries and now has a smelly garden voted leave.
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Bodoni · 18/12/2020 15:00

LQ - it runs in the family. Bath Weekly Gazette, 1836:
“Clutton Union, Somersetshire. The Board of Guardians of this Union are desirous of receiving Plans, Estimates, and Specifications for the erection of a WORKHOUSE, capable of containing Three Hundred Paupers.
By Order of the Board of Guardians, JOHN REES MOGG, Clerk. May 13th 1836.”

DGRossetti · 18/12/2020 15:15

The guy who got bottles of piss thrown up out of lorries and now has a smelly garden voted leave.

But doesn't explain why he feels in anyway vindicated by ignoring "Project Fear" which predicted lorry delays - and therefore the problems he is now facing - before the vote.

The truth that dare not speak it's name in that piece is that Leavers voted to fuck up other peoples lives, not their own. Only now they've been had, they can't actually admit it.

Which, by the way, is why is so sweet of GV to keep trying, but he fundamentally misunderstands Brexit. Because ultimately, Brexit was never about the EU.

RedToothBrush · 18/12/2020 15:17

@DGRossetti

The guy who got bottles of piss thrown up out of lorries and now has a smelly garden voted leave.

But doesn't explain why he feels in anyway vindicated by ignoring "Project Fear" which predicted lorry delays - and therefore the problems he is now facing - before the vote.

The truth that dare not speak it's name in that piece is that Leavers voted to fuck up other peoples lives, not their own. Only now they've been had, they can't actually admit it.

Which, by the way, is why is so sweet of GV to keep trying, but he fundamentally misunderstands Brexit. Because ultimately, Brexit was never about the EU.

He thought he'd get unicorn scented rainbows. Not bottles of piss.

The bottles of piss were for the immigrants.

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 18/12/2020 15:22

He thought he'd get unicorn scented rainbows. Not bottles of piss. ...The bottles of piss were for the immigrants.

But he lacks the verbal dexterity to be able to frame it without appearing racist. Because as we all know not a single vote to leave was about immigration.

Anyway, he got what he wanted. So once again - fuck him.

ListeningQuietly · 18/12/2020 16:09

But do remember that a LOT of people in East Kent
(including Babooshka and many of my friends)
DID NOT vote for Brexit.
Please do not tar everybody in an area with the same brush.
Folks I know in Dover are sad
and a lot more scared than most of us
because they will be effectively living in a police state next month

Those who voted for it can whistle
those who did not
have My sympathy and best wishes

DGRossetti · 18/12/2020 16:16

I try to limit my ire to people who voted for Brexit and limit collateral damage. After all I suspect the people seeing P45s in the future in Sunderland did not themselves vote for Brexit (but they really need to ask themselves about this famed "community" spirit we are told exists everywhere but London).

However in the article cited, the people whinging admitted they voted for Brexit. So I feel more than justified in not only saying "fuck them" but taking a very unChristian delight in their distress. And I will continue to do so.

And I will note that even now, none of those affected are capable of saying "You know what, I was conned - I should never have voted leave, and by the way, where are those fuckers Farage and Cameron ?"

HateIsNotGood · 18/12/2020 16:40

It's all gone a bit 'vulgar' here - not the reasoned, critical and 'superior' thinking that most who view this Board are used to.

However, I quite understand so don't mind me (not that any here ever would anyway). Is there a 'final answer yet?

Hope springs eternal and all that, but until it's over, it ain't over.

I do still stand by my Leave vote - that those charged with sorting it out have made a pig's ear out of it, was most probably was to be expected. And I own that.

As I said to a Friend that voted Remain today - if things are going to go to shit, it's best that we have all the shit at the same time.

ArrowsOfMistletoe · 18/12/2020 16:49

As I said to a Friend that voted Remain today - if things are going to go to shit, it's best that we have all the shit at the same time.

Well, no. Best would be if the shit only came to those who voted for it. Sadly that isn't possible.

No sympathy at all for the Leave voting gardener with the new scent profile.

Jason118 · 18/12/2020 16:52

@HateIsNotGood I admire you're ability with condescension to us all. You know what you voted for, own it, and if it's shit, it's your shit, it's your fault, and frankly I hope you stay covered in it.

DGRossetti · 18/12/2020 16:54

It's all gone a bit 'vulgar' here - not the reasoned, critical and 'superior' thinking that most who view this Board are used to.

reasoned debate was "Project Fear", don't forget. And no amount of reasoned debated is going to make the people interviewed in that article ever admit they fucked the whole country over because they assumed their privilege would protect them.

So, once again, with bells on Xmas Angry fuck 'em.

Kick over the wall 'cause government's to fall
How can you refuse it?
Let fury have the hour, anger can be power.
Do you know that you can use it?

ListeningQuietly · 18/12/2020 17:06

When people I know who voted for Brexit
seem surprised that free movement restrictions will apply to Brits as well
I've given up trying not to eye roll

NOTHING
in the shock horror recent news stories
was not predicted on these threads years ago

much was dismissed as being too stupid to worry about
but in 2019 the UK voted for stupid.

DGRossetti · 18/12/2020 17:13

but in 2019 the UK voted for stupid.

It would be more accurate to say that the UKs electoral system allowed stupid to be returned.

I can't claim to have much respect for the UKs attempts to do democracy at the moment. Probably because they couldn't be less sincere if they were being administered by Robert Mugabe. Not a great situation, really.

HateIsNotGood · 18/12/2020 17:32

Jason as I said upthread I do own it. If I seem condescending I'll own that description too, because it's not often I'm called that. I've been covered in shit a few times, usually livestock-related, and have found that a shower (or 2) gets rid of it.

But no worries I do understand how difficult it must be to be so convinced of your righteousness, and things around you aren't conforming to your perspective. And that is a very a condescending thing for me to say and I own that too.

HannibalHayes · 18/12/2020 17:40

I do understand how difficult it must be to be so convinced of your righteousness, and things around you aren't conforming to your perspective.

But things are conforming - exactly as we predicted. Therefore proving our righteousness!

PawFives · 18/12/2020 17:57

“The truth that dare not speak it's name in that piece is that Leavers voted to fuck up other peoples lives, not their own. Only now they've been had, they can't actually admit it.” @DGRossetti

This

HateIsNotGood · 18/12/2020 18:06

Well Hayes I can agree with you there - predicted and expected pretty much mean the same thing in regards to The Brexit Shitshow.

I'm not so sure that I agree with the general sentiments expressed for a long time here that suppose they (the PPs) know how all Leave voters think, what they thought they were voting for, where thay got their information, etc, etc, etc.

People who voted Leave in the 2016 aren't some homogeneous group that think the same way and all come from some 'mould'.
Just as that doesn't apply to all who voted Remain in the 2016 Referendum.

Shrillharridan · 18/12/2020 18:46

Hmmmm...
Except repeated polling/data shows there were?
Usually they were older and less well educated members of the 37% of the populace who voted.
So...yeah.
They really don't like that pointing out though for some reason.
There are always the drivers of the leave vote - Cummings, farage, erg types...a pretty penny to be made selling your country off to the highest bidder eh?
Fascinating what a biden victory has meant so far ....