Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

OP posts:
Thread gallery
44
DrBlackbird · 17/12/2020 22:17

@HannibalHayes

Dr Philip Lee *@drphiliplee1* · 7h Imagine being that much of a ghoul that you decide to pick a fight with checks notes the United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund for checks notes again feeding hungry children.
Ah but we know that for JRM it is all about him obviously and nothing to do with actual hungry children.
DrBlackbird · 17/12/2020 22:31

So this is what I'm imaging...

There's Boris at No 10 and the phone rings. It's Tony Danker saying 'what the f&(k are you playing at Boris? This economy is on its knees and British business desperately needs a deal'. So Boris, worrying about being blamed for the worst economic crisis in living memory, calls Govey and says 'Mikey, we need a deal, get me a deal'.

Boris hangs up and then the phone rings again at No 10. This time it's who says 'What the hell are you playing at Alex' (as they're closer mates) 'For god's sake, the last thing we want is a deal.' So Boris/Alex, worrying about dark alleyways, calls Govey and says 'Mikey, find a way to blame the EU for a no deal outcome'

He gets off the phone, only for it to ring again and the cycle starts all over again... it's as good a reason for our yes we do, no we don't situation that is daily hourly reported on by the press.

Peregrina · 17/12/2020 22:32

Rees -Mogg has disgraced himself today.

HannibalHayes · 17/12/2020 22:39

He was one of the ones who voted to starve poor children, after all...

Pepperwort · 18/12/2020 06:51

Let’s not forget that a lot of these ‘poor children’ have parents that actually work.

ArrowsOfMistletoe · 18/12/2020 07:41

@Peregrina

Rees -Mogg has disgraced himself today.
Rees-Mogg is a disgrace all by himself.
SabrinaThwaite · 18/12/2020 08:05

Good to hear the Dean of Trinity College Cambridge commending UNICEF on R4 this morning and asking why one of the richest cities in the world needs food aid.

Sostenueto · 18/12/2020 08:16

Yes I listened to that too Sabrina!

SabrinaThwaite · 18/12/2020 08:19

I wondered if he was giving two fingers to The Haunted Pencil (hope so!)

Kendodd · 18/12/2020 08:48

I worry we'll have no deal followed by skirmishes in the channel between Royal Navy and French fishing boats, and Johnson will see this as an opportunity to get everyone (well, those stupid enough to believe his lies) on side. Nothing brings citizens into line behind their government like a war.

Peregrina · 18/12/2020 09:35

Kendodd: yes in that sense Brexit is like the Falklands war. The vast majority of the population had never heard of them and hadn't a clue where they were, yet suddenly it was the only thing which mattered.

DrBlackbird · 18/12/2020 09:39

What is going on though? All the reports were that a deal, including fishing, was nearly done. Why has that suddenly been lost?

Is this Johnson fully prepared to throw the entire country into economic crisis for a sector worth 0.01% of the economy? To protect his hard man Brexiteer image... Like JRM, we are left to conclude that it is all about him.

SabrinaThwaite · 18/12/2020 10:01

Is this Johnson fully prepared to throw the entire country into economic crisis for a sector worth 0.01% of the economy?

Yes - because the Brexiteers hijacked fishing (which successive governments plus MEPs like Farage hadn’t given a flying fuck about for years) as a symbol of the UK’s buccaneering new sovereignty and freedom and the gullible have swallowed this hook, line and sinker Xmas Wink

It’s bollocks.

OchonAgusOchonO · 18/12/2020 10:06

@SabrinaThwaite

Is this Johnson fully prepared to throw the entire country into economic crisis for a sector worth 0.01% of the economy?

Yes - because the Brexiteers hijacked fishing (which successive governments plus MEPs like Farage hadn’t given a flying fuck about for years) as a symbol of the UK’s buccaneering new sovereignty and freedom and the gullible have swallowed this hook, line and sinker Xmas Wink

It’s bollocks.

Wasn't Farage on the EU fisheries committee and never bothered his arse turning up to meetings?
Peregrina · 18/12/2020 10:07

And fishing is the one area where compromise makes sense : we allow the French to fish in UK waters; we sell our catch to EU markets. Johnson's stance is a stupid lose - lose one.

quiteathome · 18/12/2020 10:17

Bloody fishing

I am expecting a full lockdown in January. The wording from one local school is we expect your children back on the 11th, however we don't know.

Also a full lockdown will be of benefit in a no deal. Keeping us at home as far as possible. And as the army are in some places to help with testing- they can easily be redeployed.

Argghhh that makes me sound like a crazed conspiracy theorist. I should really go and focus on my assignment.

SabrinaThwaite · 18/12/2020 10:26

Wasn't Farage on the EU fisheries committee and never bothered his arse turning up to meetings?

Yes - he attended something like 1 meeting out of 42.

BlackeyedSusan · 18/12/2020 10:56

UNICEF feeding kids in the UK is not a good look. It points to a failure of government. Maybe that's why JRM is pissed off as it makes Great Brexit Britain look a bit shit. Spoils their shiny facade, rotten to the core.

FatCatThinCat · 18/12/2020 11:17

Is this Johnson fully prepared to throw the entire country into economic crisis for a sector worth 0.01% of the economy?

This may explain it. UK fishing rights are being hoarded by just a few milionaire families. I wonder how many of them are tory donors.

unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/11/fishing-quota-uk-defra-michael-gove/?fbclid=IwAR15D8gKSXZ1Lecm3BfRrSek9kvzfvw5GKbuSvkMkA75hd0fBae1HRo9hO8

TheABC · 18/12/2020 11:35

For me, the real problem with this is helplessness. Apart from donating to the local food bank, there is nothing I can do to help (or at least ameliorate) the incoming shitshow.

I had an interesting conversation with one of my friends who is a practising solicitor. The Government has spent this year practising adverse legislation. Instead of putting out new laws to consultation and committee scrutiny, they have been rushing them through parliament and then waiting to see what is broken, before fixing it. In some cases, they don't even bother to proof-read it before submitting.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/17/90-coronavirus-laws-rules-imposed-without-parliamentary-scrutiny/

It's breaking the law courts as there's rarely enough time to keep abreast of the changes, let alone comply with the latest directive.
It really does feel like a dictatorship, at the moment.

DGRossetti · 18/12/2020 11:49

.

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
HannibalHayes · 18/12/2020 13:02

Guy Verhofstadt doing more for the British people than it's own government...

ListeningQuietly · 18/12/2020 13:06

Rees Mogg has always been in favour of bringing back Workhouses for the poor
(he mentioned it at a Parliamentary select committee around the same time as his Delhi air comment)
He is a shit.

WorriedMutha · 18/12/2020 13:12

This sounds plausible...............

Mujtaba Rahman
@Mij_Europe
.
@10DowningStreet
pessimism on UK/EU talks is tactical - to extract more out of EU on fish; & to delay a deal to the very last minute to limit Parliament's time to scrutinise the detail

Govt especially worried about Brexit-supporting lawyers waiting to analyse it for Tories’ ERG

UltimateFoole · 18/12/2020 13:15

@HannibalHayes

Guy Verhofstadt doing more for the British people than it's own government...
That's the most cheering thing I've seen in ages. Although sad too that it takes a politician from outside UK to fight for opportunities for our students.