Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

OP posts:
Thread gallery
44
Shrillharridan · 18/12/2020 18:51

@PawFives

“The truth that dare not speak it's name in that piece is that Leavers voted to fuck up other peoples lives, not their own. Only now they've been had, they can't actually admit it.” *@DGRossetti*

This

Never a more true word said 👏

The penny may be dropping for some but it's too late.

My ds1 has had good offers from 2 RG uni's - his plan is to educate himself and leave to live in a country that he can be proud of.

I had always assumed that would be here :(

2magpies1pigeon · 18/12/2020 18:57

It would mean a lot if we could keep Erasmus.
GV is right - it's important for the EU to try to maintain ties with the young in the UK. So that there is a chance of relations improving in the future.

DGRossetti · 18/12/2020 19:00

@2magpies1pigeon

It would mean a lot if we could keep Erasmus. GV is right - it's important for the EU to try to maintain ties with the young in the UK. So that there is a chance of relations improving in the future.
Which is exactly why it won't happen.
HesterThrale · 18/12/2020 19:11

Tangled thoughts:

Nick Gibb, Schools Minister, is probably causing consternation among teachers, re testing in schools.
schoolsweek.co.uk/what-did-we-learn-from-nick-gibb-about-mass-testing-in-schools/

Gibb went to Maidstone Grammar School, and he rated it.
Gibb spoke of how he believed Maidstone Grammar School to be the best. "What was good about it was that it was rigorous..." he told Teachers TV in 2006.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Gibb

Maidstone Grammar, a mile from the M20, is planning for major Brexit disruption at the start of next term by closing the school for two days to see what disruption is likely, and plan accordingly.

What goes around...

I don't live in Kent, but I feel sorry for Kent schools. They don't need this on top of the year they've just had.

HateIsNotGood · 18/12/2020 19:29

So if the UK/EU would just only agree to continue Erasmus then all will be ok?

I have not the slightest idea why anyone could even countenance voting Leave when Erasmus could possibly be at stake.

Pretty much answers it all really.

HannibalHayes · 18/12/2020 19:30

What a stupid response.

Shrillharridan · 18/12/2020 19:32

🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿

ListeningQuietly · 18/12/2020 19:36

Hateisnotgood
When the Prime Minister is on film saying fuck business
hoping that Erasmus will continue
to improve the future standard of UK politicians and business leaders
is only sensible

BlackeyedSusan · 18/12/2020 19:39

Nobody deserves piss thrown in their gardens.

ListeningQuietly · 18/12/2020 19:51

@BlackeyedSusan

Nobody deserves piss thrown in their gardens.
True, but the Drivers do that because they are left on motorways for 24 hours with nowhere to have a piss

due to the lies of politicians

Jason118 · 18/12/2020 20:01

Nobody deserves piss thrown in their gardens.
Believe me, some people do.

Jason118 · 18/12/2020 20:02

For example, if it could be guaranteed that some could be thrown into JRM's garden, I'd voluntarily donate a months worth.

ListeningQuietly · 18/12/2020 20:08

Long haul lorry drivers earn every penny they are paid
its a hard life
it breaks families
hence why drivers are either
(a) older
(b) from poor countries

Before decrying the bottles of piss thrown from motorways
think about the drives you do and wonder why they feel pressured to act like that
and they are MASSIVELY pressured despite being self employed

Key workers
have most definitely turned out NOT to be the City types we were told were so essential 5 years ago AngrySad

EcoCustard · 18/12/2020 20:41

Living in a Brexit area with a lot of European lorry drivers back and forth. The reason the roads, lay-bys, industrial estates, premises and gardens are littered with bottles of piss is because no one ever bothered to put the infrastructure and facilities in around here for lorry drivers to take breaks. Those that tried were repeatedly turned down for planning as the incumbent Tory council. Still when they can’t get their Spanish broccoli in a few weeks they can blame the EU apparently and we can grow our own. 🤣. I despair.

SabrinaThwaite · 18/12/2020 20:54

Hands up, who on this thread is a writer for Dead Ringers?

DrBlackbird · 18/12/2020 21:17

This was my favourite tweet on that #BrexitDisaster thread: Reports are emerging of 20 mile tailbacks at Dover. It is understood they are due to a devastating crash which occurred when the Brexit bus collided with reality"

Just found out today that my SiL voted Leave, which completely shocked me as I totally assumed she voted Remain. Pre-referendum we talked a lot about voting Leave wrt all the disadvantages it would bring (ok that was me talking and I thought she was taking it in). Now apparently she massively regrets it.

I want to be sympathetic to the idea of being mislead, but if you did not know what you were voting for, why vote at all?

DGRossetti · 18/12/2020 21:20

@BlackeyedSusan

Nobody deserves piss thrown in their gardens.
My reading of the article was that the piss was being thrown on the roadside, and the smell was spreading. The problem being that piss, like fish, doesn't give a fuck about your sovereignty.
HateIsNotGood · 18/12/2020 23:05

Ok I get it - your hackles are too raised right now.

Do any here know yet if Negotiations are Concluded or not?

I'm as interested as anyone here - though now past my
bedtime - so I can wait,

wherearemychickens · 18/12/2020 23:18

Not concluded today - another day of talking tomorrow. Sunday seems to be the latest deadline to sail past.

wherearemychickens · 18/12/2020 23:19

And we've thrown sand eels into the mix. Didn't see that one coming.

Ellie56 · 18/12/2020 23:52

Sand eels?

boredboringbordem · 19/12/2020 06:41

I do still stand by my Leave vote - that those charged with sorting it out have made a pig's ear out of it, was most probably was to be expected. And I own that.

Mighty big of you.

If Mumsnet search actually worked I’d be interested to go back and see how much unmitigated bollocks you’ve spouted on the subject of Brexit.

While you’re owning stuff, perhaps spreading said bollocks to others who voted to leave should be on the list.

Of course, if you’ve spread nothing but completely reasonable arguments based on your intimate professional knowledge of international trade and negotiation then you’ve nothing to own.

Ha!

mathanxiety · 19/12/2020 07:54

Eels...

It's a return to the world of Dickens.

I suspect the fishing thing has a lot to do with the idea of Britannia ruling the waves.

lonelyplanetmum · 19/12/2020 08:02

I do still stand by my Leave vote - that those charged with sorting it out have made a pig's ear out of it, was most probably was to be expected. And I own that.

I mostly lurk these days but pigs' ears lead me to reminisce from when I was posting more actively. Gove (when asked about the trade benefits of Brexit) on one occasion could only come up with trumpeting the ability to export untagged pigs' ears to China. Except that 1. it's not a huge market; and 2. we could have exported them whilst in the EU anyway.

On this thread we looked it up and his own ministry's website showed the animal labelling rules would allow pigs to be labelled elsewhere anyway. Then the media pick up on it and exposed his error too.

On the latrine of England comments why is the focus only on urine, presumably other excretions apply? Sigh- are there any Brexshit predictions from these threads that haven't come to pass?

Swipe left for the next trending thread