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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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DGRossetti · 17/12/2020 16:01

Hopefully Farage will explode by midnight ....

TheABC · 17/12/2020 16:06

Whenever they say "never", I now insert a caveat meaning "6 months"

DGRossetti · 17/12/2020 16:07

Meanwhile ... 17th in a row with a majority for yes (if you aren't bothered by the exclusion of "don't knows" ...)

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
Mistigri · 17/12/2020 16:47

School closures in Jan: who wants to take a bet that this is Brexit related?

Reduce traffic in Kent and give school dinner suppliers time to adjust their supply lines ....

Shrillharridan · 17/12/2020 17:14

I'm a chair of governors.
The RSC has sent an email mail out saying its to facilitate testing in secondary schools.
Primaries opening as usual.
So the government obviously expect a huge uptick in covid infections after Xmas.

Shrillharridan · 17/12/2020 17:15

Online learning from 4th...

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 17:16

@Mistigri

School closures in Jan: who wants to take a bet that this is Brexit related?

Reduce traffic in Kent and give school dinner suppliers time to adjust their supply lines ....

No. Full lockdown related. The lockdown they haven't told us about yet.
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ListeningQuietly · 17/12/2020 17:23

I think shrill is right.

for once feels relieved that schools is behind me

DGRossetti · 17/12/2020 17:27

Now we know why it's been so quiet of late ...

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tory-leaflet-fake-news-openly-lie_uk_5fd9f679c5b62f31c201f7dc

The Tories stand accused of a secret policy to “openly lie” after a local party newsletter urges would-be politicians to ape Donald Trump and “weaponise fake news”.

In a document circulated to activists, Wellingborough Conservatives urge campaigners to “say the first thing that comes into your head” as “you can live that down later”.

(contd)

OchonAgusOchonO · 17/12/2020 17:31

Looks like the EU have had enough of being messed about.

The European Parliament has issued an ultimatum to EU and UK negotiators, saying it will not ratify a deal by the end of the year if it is reached any later than this Sunday.

MEPs and chief EU negotiator Michel Barnier have warned that this would mean a short period of “no-deal” terms in which legally tariffs would have to be levied on trade between the EU and UK.

There has been some progress in the talks but the issue of fish is very much unresolved, Mr Barnier told MEPs, The Irish Times understands, warning that there needed to be a deal within days or there would be a period of no-deal.

“We give until Sunday to Boris Johnson to make a decision. The uncertainty hanging over citizens and businesses as a result of UK choices becomes intolerable,” said Dacian Ciolos, the president of Renew Europe, the group in which Fianna Fáil sits.

“Michel Barnier and his team has our full support as we head to the Brexit moment of truth.”

In a joint statement, the heads of the parliament’s political groups said the parliament “stands ready to organise an extraordinary plenary session towards the end of December” to ratify a deal.

^However, it would not do so if a deal came any later than Sunday, it warned, insisting that the parliament must have a copy of a provisional text “as soon as possible” to begin scrutinising it.
Manfred Weber, the head of the powerful European People’s Party of Fine Gael, reiterated that a deal would only be ratified if it arrived by Sunday.^

“After that we cannot reasonably scrutinise the deal before the end of the year. The agreement is too important to rush through parliament,” Mr Weber said.

National governments technically have the power to provisionally apply trade agreements until they are ratified, after a proposal by the European Commission.

However, the commission has long been warning that the alternative to ratification in December is a temporary period of no deal.

Nevertheless there would be significant pressure to do whatever possible to minimise the economic damage of no-deal terms, making for a potentially fraught political fight within the EU’s institutions.

www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/brexit-european-parliament-issues-sunday-ultimatum-in-trade-talks-1.4439568

TokyoSushi · 17/12/2020 18:10

Sky Breaking news that Johnson is speaking to VDL at 7pm tonight...

PussyCatInChristmasStockings · 17/12/2020 18:25

Sky also mentioned that Holyhead is screwed too - massive queues of HGVs trying to get on the ferries.

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 18:32

@PussyCatInChristmasStockings

Sky also mentioned that Holyhead is screwed too - massive queues of HGVs trying to get on the ferries.
www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-lorries-face-long-traffic-tailbacks-heading-to-holyhead-port-1.4439798?mode=amp&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter Irish lorries face long traffic tailbacks heading to Holyhead port

Theres a video on the link.

The loss of a Belfast-bound Stena Line ferry from Birkenhead to a coronavirus outbreak on Wednesday forced hauliers to redirect to ferries out of Holyhead to Dublin Port.

Bad weather has forced the delay of ferries leaving the Stena Line-owned port becoming congested, with traffic backed up to Junction 3 on the A55 main road through north Wales.

A spokesman for Stena Line Ports, which operates Holyhead port, said the delays were due to a combination of the three factors: bad weather, Brexit stockbuilding and the Covid outbreak.

No ferries were cancelled but there were long delays due to the adverse weather, the company said.

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RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 19:02

twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1339643700746588163
Dover. 20miles of tailbacks.

Faisal Islam @faisalislam
The behavioural response - that I didn’t see in any leaked planning documents - was rather than accept the authorities suggestion that everything is ready post Jan 1, traders are trying to shift as much stuff as possible while UK enjoys single market frictionless trade...

In theory - this might mean that the actual feared queues in January when new customs, regulatory, food safety border procedures and checks & perhaps tariffs come will be less than feared, as the goods are all coming now

Or it might not.

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HannibalHayes · 17/12/2020 19:12

Do they know it's ?

bornatXmastobequiet · 17/12/2020 19:21

@RedToothBrush

Hugo Gye *@HugoGye*

Big Ben gets Brexit bongs!

House of Commons confirms that the bell will ring at 11pm on 31st December - the moment UK leaves the EU's legal regime at the end of the Brexit transition.

It is part of Parliament's new year celebrations rather than being commissioned specially.

No word on whether it will also bong at midnight for the soon to be cancelled due to new lockdown over New Years Eve.

Wouldn’t it ring anyway? Maybe they could make it strike thirteen, Orwell would approve.
HannibalHayes · 17/12/2020 19:41

Brexiteers to learn the difference between Sovereignty and power.

HannibalHayes · 17/12/2020 20:27

Apparently Unicef replied to Grease-Smugg.

HannibalHayes · 17/12/2020 20:31

Oops, wrong link'''

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
frumpety · 17/12/2020 20:39

Gove: non-regression on social and environmental rules was "never really an issue" in the negotiations; bigger issue was the question of future EU rules.

Interesting, were there any rules the EU were considering that Gove wouldn't be keen on ?

HannibalHayes · 17/12/2020 20:43

Dr Philip Lee
@drphiliplee1
·
7h
Imagine being that much of a ghoul that you decide to pick a fight with checks notes the United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund for checks notes again feeding hungry children.

Pepperwort · 17/12/2020 20:57

Latest is that ‘big differences remain’ again and we’re in a ‘serious situation’ with risk of no-deal. I can understand apathy sometimes with all this posturing and rubbish from British politicians. It’s like watching a tennis match. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55347723

As for that piece of trash complaining at UNICEF, words fail me.

DGRossetti · 17/12/2020 21:10

@Pepperwort

Latest is that ‘big differences remain’ again and we’re in a ‘serious situation’ with risk of no-deal. I can understand apathy sometimes with all this posturing and rubbish from British politicians. It’s like watching a tennis match. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55347723

As for that piece of trash complaining at UNICEF, words fail me.

Goebbels would be proud of managing to connect the word "remain" to problems with Brexit. He really would.
TatianaBis · 17/12/2020 21:13

Boris has to choose who to betray - his ERG mates or the country. I wish he’d get on and make it.

TurquoiseBaubles · 17/12/2020 21:59

The difference between watching this and a tennis match is that usually both tennis players actually want to win. I have no idea what Boris wants and I'd feel much happier if I thought he knew what he wanted.

At this stage I think a no deal is necessary so that he can't agree a sort-of-deal-that-is-almost-as-bad-as-no-deal and blame all the problems on the EU Hmm.

I don't believe the Brexiters in power want a deal. But they want the shit to be blamed on Europe rather than on Brexit itself. This is their way of doing it (while fucking up absolutely everyone, on every side).

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