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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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bornatXmastobequiet · 21/12/2020 18:37

Why can’t anyone just ask one simple question and not three different questions which gives them the opportunity to ignore and dissemble.

I wondered about this. Either their editors make them try to work in as many questions as possible to look good or it’s a one-upmanship thing. Either way not terribly helpful to the population on whose behalf they’re supposed to be asking.

ListeningQuietly · 21/12/2020 18:39

My Bad, its technically the Traffic Assessment Project
www.gov.uk/government/publications/dover-traffic-assessment-project-tap
But as its usually encountered via a police roadblock ....

ListeningQuietly · 21/12/2020 18:41

Does Grant Shapps (or whatever he's calling himself this week)
not read the website
www.gov.uk/guidance/kent-traffic-management-on-m20-motorway-to-dover-and-eurotunnel

niynycachu · 21/12/2020 18:44

Welsh Government press conferences are a joy compared to this. Each journalist has two questions and doesn't ask the second until the first has been answered. Can't imagine Drakeford smirking either.

FlouncingBabooshka · 21/12/2020 18:59

One of the journalists was talking about this on the radio and it’s because they mute them as soon as they’ve asked the question to avoid follow-ups. I think I’d still rather they picked one question to make it a little more difficult to avoid answering.

SabrinaThwaite · 21/12/2020 19:07

Daily Fail are not too impressed ...

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
TheABC · 21/12/2020 19:23

The Telegraph were turning critical this morning, too.

HannibalHayes · 21/12/2020 19:44

And, while nobody is looking, the Government have just sold all our NHS data to that nice bunch of people, Palatir.

HannibalHayes · 21/12/2020 19:45

*Palantir

TurquoiseBaubles · 21/12/2020 19:53

I'm more convinced than ever that the higher infection rates are due to Christmas shopping and lockdown relaxation (and schools) rather than the new strain per se and that Johnson used it yesterday as an excuse for the latest mismanagement Hmm

Did it not occur to him that announcing a new super-virus (as the media seem to be viewing it) was going to cause mass panic?

ListeningQuietly · 21/12/2020 19:54

Did it not occur to him that announcing a new super-virus (as the media seem to be viewing it) was going to cause mass panic?
Talking to my naice wealthy gym friends this morning
NOTHING occurs to him

TurquoiseBaubles · 21/12/2020 20:17

I can imagine his train of thought (or non-thought):

"Now, what can we tell them so I don't look like a Grinch? I know, let's tell them about this new strain of virus, that way they will know I have their best interests at heart when I tell them to stay at home. They will be so grateful to me that they won't question why I keep changing my mind ..."

I mean, it's just basic common sense, isn't it? There was no need to announce a new strain at a press conference before all the research was done, and shared with other countries. This new strain, or one like it, is probably already all over Europe and possibly the US, thus explaining the rapidly rising infection rates.

HesterThrale · 21/12/2020 20:26

Reporter on C4 News (Paul McNamara) said that the Govt claim of 170 lorries was false: there are at least 500.

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2020 20:31

Joel Hills @ITVJoel
Sources close to Port of Dover and Eurotunnel are baffled by the PM’s insistence that there were only 174 lorries parked on the M20 during his press conference. At the time Boris Johnson was speaking @Kenthighways told me there were 500. The number has just risen to 945.

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mrslaughan · 21/12/2020 20:35

Liar liar pants on fire 🤥

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
titchy · 21/12/2020 20:38

@RedToothBrush

Joel Hills *@ITVJoel* Sources close to Port of Dover and Eurotunnel are baffled by the PM’s insistence that there were only 174 lorries parked on the M20 during his press conference. At the time Boris Johnson was speaking *@Kenthighways* told me there were 500. The number has just risen to 945.
Maybe the others were just resting on the M20. A bit like the money in Father Ted's account.
istherelifeafter40 · 21/12/2020 20:39

@HannibelHayes Thanks for posting this. Terrible news about NHS data and Palantir.

frumpety · 21/12/2020 20:40

The thing is, it shouldn't matter if it is 174 or over 500, operation stack is used when the ferries can't cross due to weather conditions. Something no-one can do anything about or be blamed for. Everyone accepts it will happen at some point over the Winter period, including the drivers caught up in it. This isn't one of those occasions, this really is someone's fault !

TheElementsOfMedical · 21/12/2020 21:03

It doesn’t matter whether there are 100 lorries or 1000 lorries. The people who they need to fool will believe (BeLeave) anything they’re told, particularly if it’s seasoned with a sprinkling of xenophobia to assist in swallowing. The people who can’t be fooled are not the target audience.

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2020 21:05

Ok seeing rumours of a deal in the offing from very good sources:

Sebastian Payne @SebastianEPayne
💥 Brexit latest: UK and EU are edging towards a deal on fishing rights as December 30 is eyed as the date to pass it into law.

Compromise may be 35% cut in EU access over five year period.

From @GeorgeWParker @pmdfoster @jimbrunsden and yours truly
www.ft.com/content/90e8e07e-11f7-4a66-881d-a7758676e7b7

Current EU offer is 25% cut in access to UK waters over a six year transition period.

But lots of folks in Whitehall are discussing @RaoulRuparel’s Politico article suggesting 35% cut and five year transition could be a landing zone all can live with.

British officials insist that the fishing talks are “brutally complicated” and both sides are “far part”. Let’s see how that looks in a few days time.

Such a compromise on fishing would be a considerable shift for both sides.

EU previously said it would not give up more than 18% of it access to British waters, while UK insisted it wanted to take back 80% of them.

Downing Street eyeing up December 30 as “most likely” date for a Brexit deal to be pushed through Houses of Commons and Lords. Insiders say a “big if there is a deal though.

December 31 still a possibility but No10 wary of ERG Brexiters kicking off.

Officials have noted ERG chair Mark Francois’ recent op-ed:

"Any misguided attempt to bounce Parliament into voting for such a complex Treaty, before people have even had time to examine it properly, would go down like a lead balloon on the backbenches."

And do check out @RaoulRuparel’s Politico op-ed about what the landing zone for a Brexit deal might look like.

www.politico.eu/article/opinion-heres-a-compromise-on-fish-post-brexit-and-both-sides-would-be-wise-to-take-it/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Here’s a Brexit compromise on fish — and both sides would be wise to take it
Raoul Ruparel, who correctly predicted the landing zone for last year’s Brexit deal, says a trade deal is within reach.

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RedToothBrush · 21/12/2020 21:11

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
Is a landing zone on fish slowly starting to emerge in #Brexit talks? EU states accept a 35% per cent in UK waters with 5-year transition? ^Latest with @jimbrunsden @GeorgeWParker which chimes with this thread from well-connected @RaoulRuparel
1/thread^

Before anyone gets too excited, both sides say (I know) they are "far apart" on key issues...but it's also true that both sides have moved off their lines.

Recall we're talking about how much of the €650m of fish currently caught by EU boats in UK waters they should give up/2

The EU side started on 15% then 18% and lately 25%...which French are still unhappy about, we are told...but that equates to €158.68m....that's MILLION...bear in mind this FTA would set rules for bilateral EU-UK trade worth more than €650 BILLION. So this sprats n minnows /3

Put another way, the EU offer of 25% cuts, equates to, I am told,
- France losing 7% of their quota,
- Denmark 6% and
- Netherlands 8%.

Could they really not get to 35%? As @RaoulRuparel that seems fair compromise /4

No one doubts the difficulty of the politics of this, but it is December 21 and close to unconscionable that both sides have are still unable to sort this out - because there are real livelihoods at stake.

This isn't time for blamegame, both sides need to sign a deal /5

Of course, the whole thing was never really about 'fish' - it's about level playing-field & competition, and now it seems both sides are not as settled on this as perhaps was portrayed last week. But again, it cannot be beyond wit of both sides to create a system to manage this/6

At this point we seem to be stuck in something a political impasse, where Paris is apparently genuinely ambivalent about a deal and @BorisJohnson is reluctant to sign off on the not very good deal he has reversed himself into /7

The danger is that both sides convince themselves that a 'no deal' is preferable to the compromises - the French think they can screw a better deal out of 'no deal' Britain; the Brits think 'no deal' is just a few months of painful adjustment for business /8

That would, as @RaoulRuparel says, be an "epic failure" on behalf of both sides.

Today we had a small foretaste of what no deal might look like - and away from the high politics it means pain for ordinary people.

Like the haulier I spoke to today losing £5k a day! /9

Paul Jackson, boss of @ChilternDist, has 30% of his biz based on EU traffic. A lorry generates revenue of £700-£800 a day when moving...today he had six loads cancelled...and more cancelled tomorrow. That's revenue that wont come back. Revenue for companies, staff, drivers../10

There are thousands of these stories...and it's too easy to say that "business will adjust" - it may well, but at what cost?

This entire #Brexit process has paid far too little attention to people who make things, move things and provide valuable services across borders/11

It really is time to do a deal. The EU-UK relationship is going to evolve - probably messily - over time anyway.

A bare-minimum foundation is self-evidently in everyone's interest, but the lack of political heft means the bigger picture is getting lost.

Time to focus. ENDS

Looks like progress at least...

OP posts:
HannibalHayes · 21/12/2020 21:22

More Brexit winning!

LouiseCollins28 · 21/12/2020 21:24

Instant reaction, 35% cut in EU access to UK fishing waters in 5 years time is a joke, and I'm someone who actively wants a deal.

ListeningQuietly · 21/12/2020 21:30

Sadly RTB
I do not share your or their optimism
because they are assuming that they are dealing with adults
not toddlers who are busy pulling their willies to help them think