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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

OP posts:
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SabrinaThwaite · 21/12/2020 17:26

And did I just hear Shapps gaslight everyone by saying there’s been no issues in Kent today ? 🤔

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2020 17:28

@SabrinaThwaite

And did I just hear Shapps gaslight everyone by saying there’s been no issues in Kent today ? 🤔
The situation in Kent is completely under control.
Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
OP posts:
boatyardblues · 21/12/2020 17:30

@SabrinaThwaite

“Prosper mightily”.

DRINK

Prompted an “oh fuck off!” here.
Pepperwort · 21/12/2020 17:31

The mention of education and keeping kids in schools irritates me after looking at French media and the info quality supplied / expected. Admittedly the top layer of it.

JamieLeeCurtains · 21/12/2020 17:32

I've got some drink, but I'm not even enjoying it much watching this fiasco.

TokyoSushi · 21/12/2020 17:35

Oh no! I'm on delay but now they're bigging up no deal and prospering mightily! FFS

TokyoSushi · 21/12/2020 17:37

And now it sounds unlikely they're re-opening schools and we're all rapidly heading for tier 4, or even tier 4+!! We knew this, but still utterly shit!

niynycachu · 21/12/2020 17:38

When, I think Peston, asked about no deal, was it my imagination or did he smirk mightily?

ListeningQuietly · 21/12/2020 17:39

Thank you all
I did not have to turn my TV on
and thus did not risk smashing it.

Winter Solstice fire is lit - burning the Yule Log
(last year's Christmas tree)

titchy · 21/12/2020 17:41

@niynycachu

When, I think Peston, asked about no deal, was it my imagination or did he smirk mightily?
BJ and Grant exchanged a smirk - looked like they had a bet that Peston would ask.
ListeningQuietly · 21/12/2020 17:42

How can the number of queuing lorries be dropping ?
Are they ONLY counting the ones on the road
and pretending that the ones in car parks and services and Manston are tickety boo.
Tell that to the drivers

Pepperwort · 21/12/2020 17:46

I’d guess so - BBC report saying they’re seeing dozens, a hundred, sent off to go and find parking spaces. One thing you can guarantee about UK information - it’s as propaganda-driven as America. Actual truth content, limited, unknown.

OchonAgusOchonO · 21/12/2020 17:47

The good news for those of us in the EU is vaccine approval and roll-out within a week. My son and father should get it fairly early. Ds is a healthcare worker and df has some underlying conditions so, even though he's 79, he should be on the priority list once care homes are done.

TatianaBis · 21/12/2020 17:48

@Pepperwort

Well those damned Frenchies bullying us have got loads of detail on the known genetics to date here

www.lemonde.fr/blog/realitesbiomedicales/2020/12/21/royaume-uni-un-variant-du-coronavirus-sars-cov-2-porteur-de-nombreuses-mutations/

That thrice-cursed watered down orange twit knows exactly what he’s doing, calling up animosity to the French.

Translated from the French report:

First it notes that none of the scientific data quoted by the U.K. government has been published.

Secondly, it says “based on modelling and not on laboratory experiments, British leaders/officials declared that the new variant was up to 70% more transmissible and had contributed to the increase of the R-date of the virus by 0.4 posts. That remains to be demonstrated.”

“There’s no absolute proof that the new variant is associated with a greater transmission. The only thing we know is that the frequency has increased.“

“At this point there is nothing to indicate an increase in the severity of the infection, ... and the majority of cases are people under 60 who are less susceptible to develop serious symptoms.“

“One thing is sure is that the new variant has new mutations.“

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2020 17:48

@ListeningQuietly

How can the number of queuing lorries be dropping ? Are they ONLY counting the ones on the road and pretending that the ones in car parks and services and Manston are tickety boo. Tell that to the drivers
They don't count if they stick them in a car park or tell them to fuck off out of Kent and go home.
OP posts:
OchonAgusOchonO · 21/12/2020 17:49

How can the number of queuing lorries be dropping ?

Maybe some British drivers decided to abandon it and headed home?

tobee · 21/12/2020 17:52

God though how do they head home though, the poor buggers? It's not like you can just do a u turn in an artic on the M20.

LucyfurMorningstar · 21/12/2020 17:52

This live ferry tracker seems to be showing some movement across the channel. www.ferrytracker.net/

SabrinaThwaite · 21/12/2020 18:03

Loved Pippa Crerar’s question about “over promising and under delivering”.

As an aside, heard some interesting stories about Johnson’s chat up lines last night (prompted by a “who the fuck would want to shag THAT” conversation).

FlouncingBabooshka · 21/12/2020 18:10

@SabrinaThwaite

And did I just hear Shapps gaslight everyone by saying there’s been no issues in Kent today ? 🤔
I think I heart Shapps say that, as well as lorries queueing on the motorway there were others being held ‘in a holding area called Tap, down close to Kent’. Now, I’m sure someone here (maybe LQ) will correct me if I’ve got this wrong but I was under the impression Dover TAP was a traffic management system that allowed lorries to queue on the motorway, not a place ‘close to Kent’. Where would close to Kent be I wonder? East Sussex? Essex? France?

Maybe I’m being pedantic and picking up on a lazy choice of words but it did sound rather as though the Secretary of State for Transport had never heard of Dover Tap before today and doesn’t entirely understand what it is.

I must have got that wrong though. It would be ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as, say, the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU not having realised the importance of the Dover Calais crossing.

AuldAlliance · 21/12/2020 18:16

FlouncingBabooshka

I think I heart Shapps - you had me worried, just for a second, there.

FlouncingBabooshka · 21/12/2020 18:28

AuldAlliance. 😱😱😱😱

ListeningQuietly · 21/12/2020 18:29

[quote LucyfurMorningstar]This live ferry tracker seems to be showing some movement across the channel. www.ferrytracker.net/[/quote]
The Unaccompanied trailers will be crossing to France - as of course they do not have drivers with them

and some UK drivers will be arriving from the continent

BUT
The French, Italians, Spaniards, Portugese, Romanians, Bulgarians, Poles, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Lithuanians etc etc etc
will still be here
and there is no point sending their trailers across
because they can only be moved out of Calais attached to a tractor unit

If the UK Govt are trying to say that lorries at Manston are not in a queue
they can fuck right off

Babooshka is right -
the Dover
Traffic
Access
Point
is still the M20
(google Maps makes it VERY clear)

FlouncingBabooshka · 21/12/2020 18:35

So basically what he was saying was ‘as well as lorries queuing on the motorway there are also lorries queuing on the motorway.’

We certainly have some fine minds working on these difficult issues don’t we?

ListeningQuietly · 21/12/2020 18:35

@OchonAgusOchonO

How can the number of queuing lorries be dropping ?

Maybe some British drivers decided to abandon it and headed home?

British ones will have done but over 80% of lorry drivers on UK roads are EU nationals ...