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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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RedToothBrush · 21/12/2020 16:27

@TokyoSushi

Jon Craig *@joncraig* · 2h I’m reliably informed there are plans for the Commons to sit, if necessary, next Wednesday, 30 December, to debate & vote on Brexit deal/no deal, provisionally for one day, with a COVID statement during the day, but possibly for two days if required.

Deal potentially incoming?

30th is the tier review too... just saying.
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DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 16:28

I can't see a deal being announced now. It would look too much like the UK had somehow been "beaten" by the dastardly French EU (and I have a nice five pound note in my hand that guarantees I can find at least more than one UK citizen who thinks "The EU" ^is" France).

That's the problem with animals that have to blow their testicles up to unfeasible sizes to scare away predators. All that hot air has to go somewhere, Boris.

OchonAgusOchonO · 21/12/2020 16:32

Provisional Application

That's the term I was looking for. Thanks @TokyoSushi.

TokyoSushi · 21/12/2020 16:35

I've a feeling that 30th December will be 'Tier 4 for everyone' day. Argh!

TokyoSushi · 21/12/2020 16:37

Although I wonder if it'll come even sooner than that?

Too much Sky News & time on my hands today. All of my colleagues have finished for Christmas and I'm the only one in a very quiet virtual office!

boatyardblues · 21/12/2020 16:42

@TokyoSushi

I've a feeling that 30th December will be 'Tier 4 for everyone' day. Argh!
Its also helpful to have everyone under a stay at home order when it all kicks off after 1 January. The last thing the govt wants is the population out protesting about the Brexit shitshow. /wearycynic
DrBlackbird · 21/12/2020 16:42

I just tried to order flowers for a colleague. No orders being taken as they're not getting any more coming from Netherlands. Just one small thing. Yet so big too. Another example of how Johnson likes to business?

HappyWinter · 21/12/2020 16:43

I think more restrictions soon too, Boris only arranges press conferences when he really has to.

DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 17:01

Slightly OT, but a judge had to tell a jury to ignore anything Priti Patel says.

Not quite sure why they weren't already, mind you ..

Jurors in the Essex lorry deaths trial had to be issued a warning by the judge to ignore commentary from 'politicians and pundits' after Home Secretary Priti Patel tweeted in the middle of the trial that the tragedy had been caused by 'ruthless criminals.'

The cabinet secretary's remarks were branded 'unhelpful to say the least, and a lot more could be said' by a leading QC on the case in court.

Under the Contempt of Court Act, publishing comments which substantially risk prejudicing a jury once proceedings are active is unlawful

@CourtNewsUK

DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 17:02

And it seems Labour have officially given up in Scotland. Permanently.

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
RedToothBrush · 21/12/2020 17:05

@TokyoSushi

I think that 'the map of doom' has been updated coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map

You're right @RedToothBrush that Warrington is definitely getting darker...

I strongly recommend you don't click refresh on that. The update at 4pm is all kinds of hideous. Look at the ward week on week increases. They are crazy.

Incidentally Warrington has had the lowest take up of online shopping in the country apparently. I've heard the new market is proving very popular.

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DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 17:10

Incidentally Warrington has had the lowest take up of online shopping in the country apparently.

for some reason I can hear them chanting "Witchcraft !"

TokyoSushi · 21/12/2020 17:11

I'll come back to the map after the briefing 😬

This seems to have a 'blame the French, they're being over cautious!' tone...

Yamayo · 21/12/2020 17:15

It's a rather strange press conference isn't it?
If jt is not that bad and the equivalent of a 'bad weather situation' why have Boris speak about it in person?

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2020 17:15

Much back tracking going on...

"we understand our international partners concerns"

500,000 people vaccinated (67.5 million to go)

'down to 174 lorries queuing in Kent'

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TokyoSushi · 21/12/2020 17:15

Ugh, it's one of those totally pointless briefings isn't it?

Also a tone of how cooperative and outward looking we are. 🙄

Yamayo · 21/12/2020 17:16

Also they only heard about the new Covid strain on Friday at 3.15?

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2020 17:16

@TokyoSushi

Ugh, it's one of those totally pointless briefings isn't it?

Also a tone of how cooperative and outward looking we are. 🙄

That seems to be my conclusion too.
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Yamayo · 21/12/2020 17:17

To me it sounds very conciliatory. No silly posturing and stupid puns.

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2020 17:18

[quote Yamayo]Also they only heard about the new Covid strain on Friday at 3.15?[/quote]
Matt Hancock was talking about it the previous Monday. He said it was being looked at by Porton Down last week and they'd have the result of that by the end of the week (friday 3.15 I guess).

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TokyoSushi · 21/12/2020 17:19

Yes agreed, much back tracking, 'Our international friends' appear to have spooked him! He's not actually saying anything, is he?

Whenwillow · 21/12/2020 17:21

Except 'alas' 🙄

Yamayo · 21/12/2020 17:23

So we are ready to face anything that comes our way but we will prosper mightily anyway?

PawFives · 21/12/2020 17:25

Why can’t anyone just ask one simple question and not three different questions which gives them the opportunity to ignore and dissemble.

SabrinaThwaite · 21/12/2020 17:25

“Prosper mightily”.

DRINK

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