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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

OP posts:
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DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 14:45

[quote TatianaBis]Christian Drosten on the new Großbriannien Covid strain:

www.deutschlandfunk.de/coronavirus-mutation-in-grossbritannien-virologe-drosten.694.de.html?dram:article_id=489655[/quote]
I think that's unfair.

It's the English virus.

TatianaBis · 21/12/2020 14:50

The DM of all places has a summary of the Drosten interview, I’m working and don’t have time to verify it:

Christian Drosten said the 70 per cent figure was ‘simply called that’

'I wonder whether a scientist gave an estimate, perhaps asked what he would say if he had to give a figure, and then it takes on a life of its own. Then it enters politics and politicians use this figure and the media takes it up,'

'Suddenly there's a figure out there, 70 per cent, and nobody even knows what it means,'

'The fact that top politicians are reciting scientific content to the media, saying that there's been a mutation and that cases are growing by this and that much here and there, that's unusual.'

Drosten, the director of virology at Berlin's Charite Hospital and an often-quoted expert during the pandemic, also said it was unclear whether the surge in cases in Kent and the South East was really caused by the new strain at all.

But Drosten said the new strain might simply have 'come to the surface' during a rise in cases which could have happened for other reasons.

'The question is - was it the virus's fault, or was it simply that in the area where this virus happened to be... methods of transmission came into play which would have brought any other virus to the surface?,'

Drosten said British scientists had not said with any certainty that the new strain was more infectious, suggesting that more data would be needed to establish this.

'If you want to know if a virus is more transmissible, you've have to look at pairs of people who were infected. You'd have to see who infected whom and how long it took,'

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9075233/Top-German-virologist-plays-fears-Britains-mutant-strain.html

ListeningQuietly · 21/12/2020 14:52

One is a National Treasure
The other is a Tory MP
One is anti Brexit
the other is a Swivel Eyed Loon
One is playing a fictional character
The other gets voted back in year after year

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
Pepperwort · 21/12/2020 14:52

That made me go look for other European responses. A Belgian flu expert and member of the Belgian response committee, Prof Marc van Ranst, says it’s probably already present in other countries. While I was there I stumbled across this little gem as well - I hadn’t heard about another vaccine.

www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2020/12/21/ghent-university-hospital-starts-large-scale-testing-of-curevac/

DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 14:54

'If you want to know if a virus is more transmissible, you've have to look at pairs of people who were infected. You'd have to see who infected whom and how long it took,'

Sounds like some sort of system to track people who have been tested is needed ?

www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03284-3

How Iceland hammered COVID with science

The tiny island nation brought huge scientific heft to its attempts to contain and study the coronavirus. Here’s what it learnt.

(contd)

meanwhile, the UK learned from it's track and trace system that the people who called Dido Harding a useless waste of space were being over generous.

Presumably the next UK iteration tells us that beats shit in the woods ?

QueenOfThorns · 21/12/2020 14:58

Pepperwort The results of the Novavax trial are now expected in late January, we’ve been told. As far as I can remember, that’s one that the Government has ordered large quantities of.

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2020 15:03

Aubrey Allegretti @breeallegretti
Jacob Rees-Mogg has announced a big extension of Commons virtual participation.

Now eligible to any MP - "no qualification needed" - am told, meaning people don't need to disclose if they have a medical condition.

Also open to all legislative rather than scrutiny proceedings.

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
OP posts:
Cabbagejam · 21/12/2020 15:15

@ListeningQuietly

ALSO The Tier 4 areas have freed up LOTS of stuff that had been reserved for restaurants so that will take pressure off

we still have the issue that NO EU DRIVER is going head to the UK for the forseeable.

We've had a supplier who was due to deliver last week tell us that it will be mid January now. Initially they were caught up in Calais backlog but now they can't get a driver who is willing to come over.
TokyoSushi · 21/12/2020 15:19

I think that 'the map of doom' has been updated coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map

You're right @RedToothBrush that Warrington is definitely getting darker...

YoutubeZoom · 21/12/2020 15:28

My local FB page is full of people complaining about French bullying, and how the EU forced us to allow foreigners in in February. Confused

ListeningQuietly · 21/12/2020 15:41

Tokyo
Interesting looking at that map .... my area is, and has consistently been, below 100 on its rolling rate.
The catchment area for my gym includes large areas with so few cases that they are white on the map.
I'm not sure what we are doing right as there are muppets round here as well ....

Melassa · 21/12/2020 15:43

The lorry queues have been on Italian news, with tones of “well, isn’t this a shitshow?” Most commentators have refrained from passing too much judgement on Brexit but this last week there has been a bit more unbuttoning.

Re Covid, Italy was very quick to block flights from the U.K., shades of subtle revenge for the Italian ski resorts being blamed for the 1st wave (wasn’t it an Austrian ski resort that infected lots of Brits?).

It's the English virus. in the Italian press it’s been called il virus inglese And the health minister is not impressed that the English govt sat on this info for 3 months.

For the normally Anglophile Italians to be annoyed at the Brits shows how far the U.K. has gone down in Europe’s estimation, everyone’s fed up with Boris and co’s Brexit posturing and just wants to get on with important business. The general mood is why don’t they just fuck off?

On a personal level I’ve had to reorganise Xmas gifts to friends and rellies in the U.K. as the delivery dates for stuff sent out from Italy have just disappeared, or else they no longer deliver to the U.K. as of last week, due to delivery delays and uncertainty. This was a pain as I’m a bit last minute with my gifts and tend not to buy Xmas stuff in November.

Italian DP is disgusted and wants to boycott British products. Not a problem, more kettle chips for me! Thankfully Irish cheddar can sometimes be found in Lidl (cheddar is delicious with polenta, much nicer than the much vaunted taleggio).

Pepperwort · 21/12/2020 15:52

Well those damned Frenchies bullying us have got loads of detail on the known genetics to date here

www.lemonde.fr/blog/realitesbiomedicales/2020/12/21/royaume-uni-un-variant-du-coronavirus-sars-cov-2-porteur-de-nombreuses-mutations/

That thrice-cursed watered down orange twit knows exactly what he’s doing, calling up animosity to the French.

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2020 15:57

Remember the Kent portaloo plan??

Looks like that failed

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55393076
Supermarkets try to calm food shortage fears amid border chaos

The operations director at DWP & Sons, a haulage firm based in Stoke-on-Trent, says that it currently has three drivers who have been stuck in queues on the M20 for up to 14 hours.

"Guess what? If they want to go to the toilet, they've got to dig a hole at the side of the road. It's 2020, that's so undignified. If it wasn't for the fact they have self-sufficient cabs - microwaves, coffee machines - they'd have nothing."

OP posts:
Emilyontmoor · 21/12/2020 16:03

I gather real scientists are considering various hypotheses about the virus including that, as above, it is just normal transmission that has increased exponentially. Last Tuesday traffic in Central London ground to a halt and driving through Knightsbridge it was heaving with very little mask wearing or social distancing - it was a perfect Covid factory.

In our borough cases have tripled in the last week but they started to offer asymptomatic testing at the beginning of the week to the worst hit wards (also the wards with most deprivation and higher numbers of multi generational families). A lot of schoolchildren from schools with Covid cases were sent to be tested by their families ahead of Christmas.

Another worrying theory is that this virus has mutated to the extent it is reinfecting people who had it mildly earlier in the year. In June you may remember they found that up to 17% of Londoners had antibodies which in a city of 9m equates to 1.5m people (including me) which is a big pool for reinfection.

Or maybe it is more virulent but that remains to be proven which makes using it as an excuse to do what they should have done months ago and failing to anticipate how the rest of the world would react all the more aggravating. The Scientists are not saying now that this new mutation IS more infectious just it may be but they have been saying for months that greater mixing was going to result in an increase in cases.

Choux · 21/12/2020 16:08

@RedToothBrush

Aubrey Allegretti *@breeallegretti* Jacob Rees-Mogg has announced a big extension of Commons virtual participation.

Now eligible to any MP - "no qualification needed" - am told, meaning people don't need to disclose if they have a medical condition.

Also open to all legislative rather than scrutiny proceedings.

Does that allow MPs being investigated for serious crimes such as rape to continue their parliamentary participation per chance?
DrBlackbird · 21/12/2020 16:10

Just glanced at that thread on BJ being worst PM ever. Then quickly left again with accompanying wave of depression on the ever present double standards of what Tories get away with vs Labour (people STILL saying ABC) and realisation that he'd probably STILL get re-elected if one were to run next month. Makes me want to weep with frustration. What would it take for people to finally see how these malicious liars are undermining the economic and democractic institutions of the country?!

Pepperwort · 21/12/2020 16:10

Most of that French report is taken from the ECDC report, in English, if anyone likes looking into genetic family trees. Smile Since I stuck the French on this thread:
www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/default/files/documents/SARS-CoV-2-variant-multiple-spike-protein-mutations-United-Kingdom.pdf
The main info I suppose is that there are many variants, this one has been spotted elsewhere in Europe, observations in progress.

ListeningQuietly · 21/12/2020 16:17

Choux
The investigation was dropped for lack of evidence.

In other news, Mark Francois is out and about on the media again.

DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 16:19

@ListeningQuietly

Choux The investigation was dropped for lack of evidence.

In other news, Mark Francois is out and about on the media again.

If you don't look, you can't find. Or absence of evidence is not evidence of absence (otherwise the scam that is religion would have died out at inception) ...
OchonAgusOchonO · 21/12/2020 16:20

@DGRossetti - It is my understanding grin (just before I have to pop out ...) that it needs the EP to affirmatively vote to extend the transition period. Something that they had decided they would not do without the UKs request.

That's correct. I didn't mean transition in the brexit sense. I'm not sure what the term would be (and should have used a different one) but it is possible to implement a deal n an interim basis while waiting for it to be ratified. This is not a popular option though so unlikely the EP would agree.

ListeningQuietly · 21/12/2020 16:22

The EU has nothing to gain by messing with 11pm on the 31st
so it won't

The UK has made its bed
and now has to lie in it
even though its more Tracy Emin than Hotel du Vin

TokyoSushi · 21/12/2020 16:23

Jon Craig
@joncraig
·
2h
I’m reliably informed there are plans for the Commons to sit, if necessary, next Wednesday, 30 December, to debate & vote on Brexit deal/no deal, provisionally for one day, with a COVID statement during the day, but possibly for two days if required.

Deal potentially incoming?

TokyoSushi · 21/12/2020 16:24

Tony Connelly
@tconnellyRTE
·
11m
^Now that the UK has ruled out Provisional Application acc to
@PippaCrerar
, where were things at on the EU side with that?
Tony Connelly
@tconnellyRTE
·
10m
2/ This morning the European Parliament ruled out ratifying any agreement before the Dec 31 deadline as there would not be enough time to scrutinise the text
Tony Connelly
@tconnellyRTE
·
10m
3/ So, if we got a deal in the next day or two that would require a decision to go for Provisional Application on Jan 1, with the EP ratifying later.
Tony Connelly
@tconnellyRTE
·
10m
4/ The EU's chief negotiator
@MichelBarnier
would have to propose Provisional Application to the Council and then member states have the sole right to grant it. EP sources say the Commission has offered to consult MEPs on any proposals, but it is not a legal requirement
Tony Connelly
@tconnellyRTE
Replying to
@tconnellyRTE
5/ Sources say Dec 23 is the last realistic date to arrange provisional application as it, too, requires legal procedures. Either way, by rejecting Provisional Application today the UK is effectively guaranteeing a period of No Deal on January 1 (as Barnier warned one week ago)^

Or not?

Choux · 21/12/2020 16:26

@ListeningQuietly

Choux The investigation was dropped for lack of evidence.

In other news, Mark Francois is out and about on the media again.

I know it was dropped. And I know by coincidence he has begun publishing in the telegraph again.

I was wondering if the changes being made allowed anyone in future being investigated for anything to continue in Parliament. Thereby helping disguise the identity of any future MPs being investigated for crimes.

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