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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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ListeningQuietly · 21/12/2020 12:24

Sneaks in having had a lovely swim and a yoga class this morning Grin

I was cogitating on the How long till the shelves empty while swimming.
Ambient goods - not a big issue as there are a couple of weeks worth stashed in warehouses
and because folks like Sainsburys did their 10x points offer
many people have a stash at home.

Chill Chain is another matter
BUT
Reading up a bit more on the North France chill chain and how it integrates with the UK chill chain
I'd reckon there are about 5 days of chiller aisle and salad aisle in the UK
at normal stocking levels
The logistics managers can stretch that to about 8 days by just slightly reducing stock to each store
and then bringing in "multiples" limits
so
there will be less
it may go up in price
but the SUPERMARKETS will be able to protect the vulnerable

the Government DESERVE an Artic parked across their drives and bottles of piss lobbed over their gates

ListeningQuietly · 21/12/2020 12:26

ALSO
The Tier 4 areas have freed up LOTS of stuff that had been reserved for restaurants
so that will take pressure off

we still have the issue that NO EU DRIVER is going head to the UK for the forseeable.

DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 12:28

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/12/20/brexit-chaos-parents-epileptic-children-told-supply-cannabis/

Epileptic children have been informed their supply of medicinal cannabis from Europe will be cut off in January after the end of the Brexit transition period.

Up to 40 children with severe epilepsy could be left without medication that their parents currently import from the Netherlands.

The end of the transition period means that UK prescriptions cannot be fulfilled by pharmacies or dispensaries in the EU.

Officials from the Department for Health wrote to parents of children with severe epilepsy this week, informing them their supply would be cut off and advising them to take “urgent action” to secure access to cannabis available in the UK.

The letter, seen by The Telegraph, warns that “prescriptions issued in the UK can no longer be lawfully dispensed in an EU Member State” after January 1.

But parents have warned that changing their children’s medication to another brand could cause their condition to worsen.

Dozens of families turned to Dutch providers for the cannabis oil after it was legalised in the UK in November 2018.

One of the children affected by the export ban is Alfie Dingley, one of the first children to receive an NHS prescription to treat his rare form of epilepsy.

Since taking Bedrolite, the cannabis oil available from the Netherlands, Alfie’s seizures have all but stopped.

His mother, Hannah Deacon campaigns for access to medicinal cannabis with the End Our Pain group.

She accused the Government of not giving parents enough time to make alternative arrangements.

“If I have to forcibly move him from that product to another CBD oil, that could mean that he ends up in hospital with hundreds of seizures, which is life or death,” she said.

“There is no guarantee it will work. It is very dangerous, what they are asking us to do.”

A Department of Health and Social Care spokeswoman said: “We sympathise with patients dealing with challenging conditions and there is a range of alternative cannabis-based medicines available to UK patients.

“The decision on what treatments to prescribe to patients is rightly one for clinicians to make, on a case-by case basis and dependent on the specific needs of the individual."

Sostenueto · 21/12/2020 13:04

That is wholly unacceptable DGR. God I hate this damn Government 😡😡😡

TheABC · 21/12/2020 13:07

At what point will the lawsuits start against the Government for failing to prevent "foreseeable harm", to patients like the epileptic children, above?

HappyWinter · 21/12/2020 13:11

That's awful, poor families, it's not something that should be left to chance. There are so many unintended consequences from Brexit.

@enochroot Hope your daughter is able to make it home for Christmas.

bellinisurge · 21/12/2020 13:14

It's an easy shortcut but could I suggest we avoid "epileptic children " and stick with "children with epilepsy "

DrBlackbird · 21/12/2020 13:20

You can all have the joys of listening to another Johnson press conference this afternoon. A treat for today. Bets on what he's going to say?

quiteathome · 21/12/2020 13:26

What time is the press conference?

TokyoSushi · 21/12/2020 13:27

I'm guessing 5pm, unless we hear otherwise...

AuldAlliance · 21/12/2020 13:30

Bets on what he's going to say?

Um, er, alas.

Whenwillow · 21/12/2020 13:34

DH reckons he'll be saying 'alas, no deal, and blaming the French'.
I'm betting on an extension to talks due to covid (graceful way out)

DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 13:39

@TheABC

At what point will the lawsuits start against the Government for failing to prevent "foreseeable harm", to patients like the epileptic children, above?
They will fail. The government has told us (repeatedly) they aren't responsible for anything.
DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 13:40

@Whenwillow

DH reckons he'll be saying 'alas, no deal, and blaming the French'. I'm betting on an extension to talks due to covid (graceful way out)
Talks can go on for as long as people want.

It's the cliff edge end of transition that will happen.

Lonelycrab · 21/12/2020 13:40

I don’t think he’ll announce no deal today, that will probably get left until next week. If at all. If he were to announce that today surely it would just send everyone into even more panic buying frenzy...

Whenwillow · 21/12/2020 13:43

I know DGR I'm attempting to be optimistic and light hearted in my bet laying Grin

OchonAgusOchonO · 21/12/2020 13:43

Talks will continue until the bitter end. I recall someone from the EU saying that. However, it's now too late for the deal to be ratified by the European Parliament so there will either be a period of no deal or a transition period where the deal is put into play provisionally until the deal can be ratified (or not).

DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 14:05

@OchonAgusOchonO

Talks will continue until the bitter end. I recall someone from the EU saying that. However, it's now too late for the deal to be ratified by the European Parliament so there will either be a period of no deal or a transition period where the deal is put into play provisionally until the deal can be ratified (or not).
It is my understanding Grin (just before I have to pop out ...) that it needs the EP to affirmatively vote to extend the transition period. Something that they had decided they would not do without the UKs request. Presumably because they got told to go fuck themselves when it was suggested without the UKs request.

So without any meeting of the EP before 1st January, the transition period will end.

Similarly, without any meeting of the EP before 1st January, no new treaty can be out in place.

When you consider that it would have been possible for someone to have left 6th Form in 2016 just after the referendum, and gone on to get a degree - be in employment for over a year in the time the UK has had to organise the Brexit that apparently the whole country was gagging for, you have to wonder quite how incompetent those in charge were and are.

Kendodd · 21/12/2020 14:08

I don’t think he’ll announce no deal today, that will probably get left until next week. If at all. If he were to announce that today surely it would just send everyone into even more panic buying frenzy...
I don't think there would be a panic buying frenzy with the announcement of no deal. A huge number of the population still believe Brexit will be great and have completely swallowed the lie that any warnings are all project fear and to be ignored.

DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 14:13

A huge number of the population still believe Brexit will be great

That's because they think it's happened.

cherin · 21/12/2020 14:21

Well, technically it has happened. It’s the transition period that gives you the impression nothing has changed...
I think he’s just going to regurgitate some reassuring words about freight and transport of goods, telling everyone to keep quiet and don’t worry

ListeningQuietly · 21/12/2020 14:23

When you consider that it would have been possible for someone to have left 6th Form in 2016 just after the referendum, and gone on to get a degree - be in employment for over a year in the time the UK has had to organise the Brexit that apparently the whole country was gagging for, you have to wonder quite how incompetent those in charge were and are.
She is sitting upstairs.
The Friday morning after the vote was the day of the Maths A level paper and the Maths GCSE papers.
She gained the right to vote only a few weeks before.
Her brother has since gained the right to vote as well.
Their views of Brexit and the Tory Government have hardened in the intervening period.

DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 14:29

@ListeningQuietly

When you consider that it would have been possible for someone to have left 6th Form in 2016 just after the referendum, and gone on to get a degree - be in employment for over a year in the time the UK has had to organise the Brexit that apparently the whole country was gagging for, you have to wonder quite how incompetent those in charge were and are. She is sitting upstairs. The Friday morning after the vote was the day of the Maths A level paper and the Maths GCSE papers. She gained the right to vote only a few weeks before. Her brother has since gained the right to vote as well. Their views of Brexit and the Tory Government have hardened in the intervening period.
D Day was planned in 2 years.
RedToothBrush · 21/12/2020 14:31

@Whenwillow

DH reckons he'll be saying 'alas, no deal, and blaming the French'. I'm betting on an extension to talks due to covid (graceful way out)
Yep French Hate. Probably a quip about Macron having it. And not surrendering like them.

Talk of an extension is your wishful thinking.

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TatianaBis · 21/12/2020 14:42

Christian Drosten on the new Großbriannien Covid strain:

www.deutschlandfunk.de/coronavirus-mutation-in-grossbritannien-virologe-drosten.694.de.html?dram:article_id=489655