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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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FatCatThinCat · 21/12/2020 10:44

I was stupid enough to venture into Daily Mail territory earlier. Their readers are calling for the military to be used to force the French to open the borders. They're clamouring for war. WTF is wrong with them!

SabrinaThwaite · 21/12/2020 10:45

Let's hope the Daily Mail doesn't do its usual.

Too late ...

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
tobee · 21/12/2020 10:46

Nostalgia is particularly weird when it's for a time most of us were never alive for. Possibly even stronger emotions.

HappyWinter · 21/12/2020 10:46

@niynycachu That's good, it should be easier to cope with lockdown again.

DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 10:49

A timely thought ...

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 10:51

@FatCatThinCat

I was stupid enough to venture into Daily Mail territory earlier. Their readers are calling for the military to be used to force the French to open the borders. They're clamouring for war. WTF is wrong with them!
Don't worry. 90% of the Mails readership would struggle to pick up a fork, let alone a gun.

It's very easy to be bellicose with other peoples children, as we should know.

And they're just following Churchill anyway, jaw-jawing away ...

DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 10:53

Chins up.

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
tobee · 21/12/2020 10:56

French transport minister says traffic could resume within hours days Sky

tobee · 21/12/2020 10:57

*Says Sky

TheElementsOfMedical · 21/12/2020 10:57

Their readers are calling for the military to be used to force the French to open the borders

Weird. Didn't they literally vote for control of the borders? Confused

tobee · 21/12/2020 10:58

They don't fucking know what they want. Nor none of the rest of em neither

QueenOfThorns · 21/12/2020 10:59

Bloody Mail Angry

Anyway, having just been in another supermarket (I forgot bread the first time), I can say that people don’t seem to be panic buying, and also that there are HUGE heaps of seasonal veg - carrots, potatoes, parsnips etc.

DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 11:01

@tobee

They don't fucking know what they want. Nor none of the rest of em neither
#BrexitIsland is worth a quick flick on Twitter.

Certainly Brexiteers aren't getting it easy now.

Still, at least the EU was able to use it's sovereignty to close it's borders, eh, Nige ? Bet you wish we could too you fucking fucker piece of shit.

YoutubeZoom · 21/12/2020 11:16

No panic buying here, either. DH says not much turkey is left in Lidl, but we wanted goose anyway.

Pepperwort · 21/12/2020 11:33

@Lonelycrab

I personally think this governments actions with not extending the transition period border on criminally negligent. We always knew that covid would be particularly virulent in the winter months.
I think all the government’s actions in not securing our food supplies border on criminally negligent .

I have been afraid of escalating tensions with France since our very own watered-orange fool started making this big deal out of the fish. Pun unintentional but I’ll leave it. How do we get rid of him and beg John Major to put together a national emergency government?

quiteathome · 21/12/2020 11:45

Went to Costco. Looked like most people were just buying for Christmas. If the vast quantity of sprouts in people's trolleys was anything to go by.

Other supermarket looked busy as as I drove past. However that is not unusual for this time fo the year.

It is a little bit frightening as to how much power France have over our borders/ supply lines. It really is not sensible to piss them off.

Mistigri · 21/12/2020 11:48

French transport minister says traffic could resume within hours days Sky

Let's not forget that the French want the borders open too. They have customers for Scottish seafood waiting on deliveries, among other things. But they have to be convinced (able to convince their own electorate) that it's safe to do so.

I don't see this as Brexit related at all, except insofar as the situation is made even more critical by an impending no deal Brexit.

Note that if the FR border opens the likely need for a negative test will slow traffic down.

Tanith · 21/12/2020 11:49

Someone elsewhere pointed out that, if France - an EU country - is able to control her borders, then clearly we always had that right, too.

Which most on here already knew, of course.

DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 11:50

@Lonelycrab

I personally think this governments actions with not extending the transition period border on criminally negligent. We always knew that covid would be particularly virulent in the winter months.
I thought the government had made it 100% crystal clear that's not their job ?
Givemeabreakpls · 21/12/2020 11:50

Sky News are reporting that there are positive noises from the French in terms of reopening the borders to ensure supplies - I’m surprised?

AuldAlliance · 21/12/2020 11:57

Sky News are reporting that there are positive noises from the French in terms of reopening the borders to ensure supplies - I’m surprised?

Why? They said they were closing them while they agreed on testing protocols with other EU states. Presumably, they've done that.
France isn't actually out to block trade in either direction.

Place your bets now, though, on whether the UK can set up measures so hauliers can comply with testing protocols, despite having been told yesterday they were in the offing.

Peregrina · 21/12/2020 12:02

I can't myself see why the French don't just say "OK you exclude our vessels from your waters, but the quid pro quo is that you can't land your catches here."

I suppose it's the latter bit that the Brexiters are struggling with - they want to exclude the French, but still want to land their catches.

veeeeh · 21/12/2020 12:08

Brexit revenge lol

DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 12:11

@Peregrina

I can't myself see why the French don't just say "OK you exclude our vessels from your waters, but the quid pro quo is that you can't land your catches here."

I suppose it's the latter bit that the Brexiters are struggling with - they want to exclude the French, but still want to land their catches.

Because it's not just up to the French ?

There is a fundamental difference in EU and UK negotiating stances. The EU is negotiating for all countries and all citizens. The UK is negotiating for about 40 people and quite happy to fuck over the other (65,000,000-40) in the UK.

Which is why the UK is unable to comprehend the position of the EU. And therefore unable to proceed.

I imagine Machiavelli, Marcus Aurelius, Sun Tzu - or even Dr. Fucking Zeuss have written about the importance of changing places across negotiations to know what your opponents goals are.

enochroot · 21/12/2020 12:11

My DD is a front line doctor and I can count on one hand the number of hours I've seen her since last Christmas.
She's on nights this Christmas so is trying to get here today to see me. Trains look a little tricky though out of Manchester so I'm jittery.

All the second home owners from the SE arrived in this little rural village just before the announcement so it's no surprise that the variant is spreading.

Thank you for these threads. I've been following from the beginning.

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