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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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OchonAgusOchonO · 21/12/2020 08:36

@bellinisurge - DUP are pretty much writing their farewell speech if they don't ban flights from GB.

I don't know. If you think tory voters are loyal, they're not a patch on DUP voters.

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2020 08:44

Don't forget the farage garage and the other brexit car parks were already behind schedule. I do not see how these ongoing issues will improve things and not put them even behind schedule...

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TokyoSushi · 21/12/2020 08:46

DH has just gone round to our local 'big Asda' - he's not come back so I assume he's in!

Blacktothepink · 21/12/2020 08:47

Well Sainsbury’s had few shoppers but loads of pickers...at least I don’t have to venture out to the shops till after Xmas to add to the stockpile before 31st, ffs 😩

Elephant4 · 21/12/2020 08:52

Do you think if we wait until Christmas Eve to shop for food we’ll be without Christmas dinner?

All deliveries are booked up and work makes it difficult to go full on shopping until then.

Were supposed to be going elsewhere for Christmas but Tier 4 has scuppered those plans.

Pepperwort · 21/12/2020 09:09

Might be of help until LQ or someone useful wakes up:

news.sky.com/story/emergency-talks-to-prevent-christmas-food-shortages-after-freight-hit-by-europes-border-closures-12169041

To echo the government, let’s not panic. Freight across the Channel closing now does not empty the shelves this second. There will be some local stocks. It depends on how people behave quite simply. We might know a bit more about that by the end of today. Personally I would be trying to get a regular shop done in the next three days, say. Tier 4 has screwed a lot of plans, I’m sorry.

TokyoSushi · 21/12/2020 09:16

I feel a bit calmer this morning, thimgs always seem worse in the middle of the night!

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2020 09:19

@Elephant4

Do you think if we wait until Christmas Eve to shop for food we’ll be without Christmas dinner?

All deliveries are booked up and work makes it difficult to go full on shopping until then.

Were supposed to be going elsewhere for Christmas but Tier 4 has scuppered those plans.

I am not getting shopping until i pick up on Wednesday. Picking up meat on 24th.

But i do have a back up plan (or two).

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Kendodd · 21/12/2020 09:32

I heard a bit of (possible) good news! From Gavin Williamson no less. Dropped in at the end of his Today interview on R4. He said some friends of his got married a couple of weeks ago, 15 people attended the wedding. A few days later one guest had a covid test (no symptoms) came back positive for the new strain. The other wedding guests all had covid tests, 11 tested positive for the new strain, none of them has symptoms. Viruses do very often mutate and become weaker.

If true, I think this could be great news.
Disclaimer : This government are a bunch of proven liars and I wouldn't put it past them to try to put out disinformation to try to calm a situation down. Plus, something doesn't ring true about this story, how did all these people get covid tests when you're only supposed to test if you have symptoms. Timing is suspiciously convenient. Even if the above is true, how would GW know all of their results and the strains (he didn't attend the wedding). I could go on but am trying to cling to any ray of hope I can.

Dateloaf · 21/12/2020 09:40

This could get serious if there is panic buying in shops with a new more infective strain in circulation. Parliament must sit so MPs can call on Johnson to beg for an extension to the transition period from the EU in the interests of public safety. Brexit is a completely delusional indulgence at this point.

moominmomma1234 · 21/12/2020 09:44

I have found an easier for me to understand article in science mag about the virus. @B117 i see where you get your name from now!

The article is a bit of a mental rollercoaster = plenty of me flip flopping from ‘Ah we are gonna be ok to OH no we are not ‘!
It mentions one of the parts of the mutations may mean less serious disease but then goes on to say a visual similar to the UK one but in SA seems to cause more illness in young patients.

It’s the not knowing and the scientists not knowing that gets me. I NEED to know everything NOW. I am so impatient. That’s why I come on here, to find out of you lot beofre news even breaks on the TV

Lonelycrab · 21/12/2020 09:44

I personally think this governments actions with not extending the transition period border on criminally negligent. We always knew that covid would be particularly virulent in the winter months.

2magpies1pigeon · 21/12/2020 09:53

Not so much negligent as intentional.

DateLoaf · 21/12/2020 09:55

Yes Lonelycrab the writing is on the wall since July when they should have asked for an extension instead of arrogantly pressing on. What a dangerous farce. So far the greatest leadership has been shown by Ed Davey who I generally have very little time for.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55390304

DGRossetti · 21/12/2020 10:22

@bornatXmastobequiet

I wonder what the USA will do.
Demand a recount ?
YoutubeZoom · 21/12/2020 10:24

We would have flown to Germany today, had Lufthansa not cancelled our flights months ago.

Any chance of Johnson begging von der Leyen for a deal, any deal now that he can see the rehearsal for Brexit?

Peregrina · 21/12/2020 10:26

The only response I see Johnson making is to double down on the anti EU, particularly French, rhetoric.

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2020 10:27

@Peregrina

The only response I see Johnson making is to double down on the anti EU, particularly French, rhetoric.
^
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AuldAlliance · 21/12/2020 10:31

The only response I see Johnson making is to double down on the anti EU, particularly French, rhetoric.

Someone on another thread has already suggested the UK should "nuke" France...

Peregrina · 21/12/2020 10:33

I haven't seen that thread - the ones I am looking at are bad enough.

Don't some of these people know that we started to lose the Empire at the end of the last war? Which, they ought to know was 75 years ago.

AuldAlliance · 21/12/2020 10:35

That particular post may have been pulled, Peregrina... Wink

anomletteandaglassofwine · 21/12/2020 10:35

The Irish foreign minister was just on the radio, said that the EU tried to persuade the U.K. to extend the negotiation period during the summer but they refused, now it's too late as it's so legally complex to extend it. Also EU are not going to fold on fisheries.

HappyWinter · 21/12/2020 10:42

Supermarkets were normal this morning, if there are shortages it will take a little while to come through whilst the current stocks are run down and there isn't anything to replace them. I don't think anyone is going to panic at the moment (apart from the guy in my local supermarket with a big trolley and 3 massive multipacks of bottled water), it will be if the shelves start to empty of some items and people start buying other things. In March, the shortages of certain products started quite a while before the panic buying, it took a while to filter through. It probably makes sense to do the Christmas shopping at the start of the week whilst it isn't busy (I'd say this in a normal year too), although with only the Christmas day bubbles going ahead in tiers 1-3, there may not be as much demand as in a normal year.

Sainsburys say there will be a few missing products, mostly salad etc.

www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/21/sainsburys-port-restrictions-missing-products-uk

The news isn't presenting it as something to panic about, hopefully that will help. Let's hope the Daily Mail doesn't do its usual.

tobee · 21/12/2020 10:44

@Peregrina

I haven't seen that thread - the ones I am looking at are bad enough.

Don't some of these people know that we started to lose the Empire at the end of the last war? Which, they ought to know was 75 years ago.

Nostalgia is a very strange and potent emotion.

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