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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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TokyoSushi · 21/12/2020 02:12

I literally don't know what to believe anymore. Is there even a mutant virus? Or did Johnson just say that as an excuse to cancel Christmas because he'd got the bloody strategy wrong, again?

And now it's all blown up so badly that the government are trying to figure out how long we can survive on the food that we have left in the country?

I feel like I'm going a little bit insane!

Blacktothepink · 21/12/2020 02:55

Bloody hell, just when you think things couldn’t get any worse...I’ll be going to the supermarket after my nighshift at 6am 🤨

moominmomma1234 · 21/12/2020 04:13

@B117 I have just read your report. I am trying to simplify it in my head in layman’s terms.
Could you tell me if I have misinterpreted this: An immune compromised patient who was chronically ill with covid (so they were shedding the virus for weeks?) the virus they were shedding started to mutate over time. They were given plasma treatment - the other persons antibodies in the plasma got rid of the ‘nomral’ covid strains but that left space for the mutated one to thrive.?
Which sounds like if you give weak antibiotics to a chronic bacterial infection the super bugs thrive when the weaker bacteria get wiped out?
Am I understanding this correct? This throws up a couple of thoughts - how can people still be shedding the virus after weeks?is that because this was a rare immunocompromised patient.
Can on/off half arsed lockdowns act similar to poor antibiotic therapy - knocking off the weaker viruss and leaving the stronger ones to thrive when society suddenly opens up?
I am so sorry if i have totally got this wrong. My mind is in over drive.

titchy · 21/12/2020 05:27

I am up far too early waiting for Sainsbury's to open at 6. Wonder if there'll be queues forming....?

PussyCatInChristmasStockings · 21/12/2020 06:15

There might be, there was at ours for the first one back in march.
We went to Tesco at 3am - really really quiet and shelves absolutely full.

bornatXmastobequiet · 21/12/2020 06:25

If I was a haulier I know what I’d be doing - heading into London, up Whitehall, park up outside Downing St and hurl bottles of piss over the gates.

bornatXmastobequiet · 21/12/2020 06:37

I wouldn’t normally be listening to the radio at this time today as I’m not working - would usually stay in bed. However I am (will go shopping early instead of leaving it to the afternoon) and is it just me or do the presenters on the Today programme sound very strained? As though they know that whatever they’re reporting, it’s nothing like the actuality?

Oh and there’s a major conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn tonight. But the Age of Aquarius it ain’t.

Whenwillow · 21/12/2020 06:53

I have never been more grateful for these threads. Thanks to you we are prepared, and have no need for a last minute dash.
Flowers Red and LQ and all the regulars

longwayoff · 21/12/2020 07:00

Yes, where is Clav when needed. I need help with disbelieving the evidence of my own ears and eyes. Things she stated could never occur are unfolding in front of me and I need those firm refutations. Hope she's not stuck in a traffic jam with a shopping list.

Sostenueto · 21/12/2020 07:13

Lol!

bornatXmastobequiet · 21/12/2020 07:28

I believe there are both a Waitrose and farm shop within walking distance.

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2020 07:40

The data they have for Mutant Covid is so unbelievably limited, as to render it almost useless.

We know its got some sort of advantage and appears to be spreading faster but we have no real idea what is going on. Even the scientists can only theorise on the balance of probabilities.

They were saying there is no evidence New Covid is more severe than Old Covid. And yes since we don't seem to have a massive increase in deaths it certainly doesn't look to be significantly worse. But absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

The Nervtag data was interesting on this point. It stated that they had identified 4 deaths out of 1000 cases of the new strain. Thats it. From that they are completely unable to compare with other data sets about how severe it is in the population as a whole. Never mind individual groups who may be at elevated risk. Nor even groups thought to be not at risk but this new strain is affecting badly (i am assuming those 4 days are not all in people under 30 with no underlying health conditions - remember spanish flu affected young adults far more than traditional vulnerable groups).

There are obviously concerns over viral load and transmission rates at this stage but the problem is we simply lack much to work with at this point.

If this strain does have evolutionary advantages then it will be impossible to contain. And given we know its been around since September prior to the closure of the travel corridors its almost certainly seeded lots of places outside the uk. We know its in Australia which has been considerably more strict than other near neighbours. The idea its not in Spain now, i find hard to believe.

So closing the borders will slow it down marginally but its unlikely to stop anything. In that sense its more a political statement to internal citizen hearing the phrase 'mutant virus'.

Tbh i lean heavily toward it being more likely to be less deadly (though could cause more deaths in the short term due to overwhelming and staff shortages in key jobs). But the fallout from Mutant New Covid is far more likely to be worse.

I don't think we have a case of 'but what aren't the government telling us' on this at this stage, simply because the government don't really know themselves. (unless of course the age profile of those 4 deaths is unusual).

The scientists can model the virus and make predictions but from whats been released its more of a 'we don't really know' response than anything more sinister from what i can tell.

I may yet be proved wrong. But im far more worried about the political fall out than the medical one at this stage.

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CaptainSandy · 21/12/2020 07:41

B117 I'm a name changer and mostly a lurker but one thing I love about these threads is in general the courteous level of discourse and your tone was very jarring to read.

TheElementsOfMedical · 21/12/2020 07:41

So, we're essentially isolated on our little island(s) with borders closed and we'll have to be all self-sufficient and doughty for Crimbo and beyond. I think I heard a collective grunt as 17.4 million Leave voters achieved simultaneous orgasm at getting what they voted for 🤢

Pepperwort · 21/12/2020 07:48

And now we find out that food supply lines matter, especially on an overpopulated island. Hopefully most people will have got extras in just for the time of year.

TheElementsOfMedical · 21/12/2020 07:55

@Pepperwort

And now we find out that food supply lines matter, especially on an overpopulated island. Hopefully most people will have got extras in just for the time of year.
"Let them eat local artisanal farm shops!"
Pepperwort · 21/12/2020 08:00

The number of times I’ve ground my teeth trying to be polite reading that sort of crap! Along with everyone should grow your own. It’s amazing I still have teeth left. I really hope reality hits those it needs to, and not those it already hits too hard.

quiteathome · 21/12/2020 08:06

Fuckity fuck

Off to Costco this morning.

I have never felt so isolated as a country. The Brexiters will be delighted.

I am off to stock up on artisan turnips.

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2020 08:06

"Let them eat local artisanal farm shops!"

Tbf the voting demographics do favour this for leave voters. Its the cities who voted remain and will have greater issues growing their own or going to the farm shop (ignoring the cost side of this).

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quiteathome · 21/12/2020 08:08

I have a cunning plan. Keep hold of all the turnips- we will be using them as currency by February.

OchonAgusOchonO · 21/12/2020 08:10

And of course the DUP refuse to make the sensible decision to ban travel from Britain. Apparently, the UK ban on travel from tier 4 areas is sufficient. Other parties are advocating amending the Public Health act to implement a ban but Arlene says it's up to daddy (UK government) to make the decisions.

titchy · 21/12/2020 08:19

I have parsnips - will that do?

Also now have Prosecco and cheese Grin So Christmas is saved!

QueenOfThorns · 21/12/2020 08:20

I made a dash to Tesco at 7am (DH needs his Christmas sprouts!) and it wasn’t exactly heaving. Piles of veg (and also cheese for those who are interested). Maybe it hasn’t sunk in yet? Anyway, now we’ll be fine for Christmas even if nothing at all arrives in my online shop on Wednesday.

bellinisurge · 21/12/2020 08:23

I think Clav might be at their local Nisa mumbling Fuckfuckfuck

bellinisurge · 21/12/2020 08:25

@OchonAgusOchonO , DUP are pretty much writing their farewell speech if they don't ban flights from GB.