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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

OP posts:
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Pepperwort · 20/12/2020 23:23

Track and trace didn’t need a computer system necessarily, certainly not what we were threatened with. Plain old organisation would have done. Without that - GIGO applies.

TatianaBis · 20/12/2020 23:27

The NERVTAG documents did the rounds this morning.

There’s a very, very long way between: “Which suggests a growth rate of VIU- 202012/01 that is 71% (95%CI: 67%-75%) higher than other variants”

and baldly stating that the strain is: “70% more transmissible” as if it were fact.

There would need to be so much research and analysis before being to make a claim like that.

All there really is to go on is the fact that it has spread quickly in London and the SE. However, it’s flu season, it’s winter now so everyone is indoors and 2nd December everything opened up fast.

niynycachu · 20/12/2020 23:29

Do we know if vaccines will be delayed???

wherearemychickens · 20/12/2020 23:30

So it could just have been the variant that happened to be somewhat prevalent, and then conditions that would have been good for any variant have occurred and it's gone 'wahey'?

SabrinaThwaite · 20/12/2020 23:31

Dover now closed to all accompanied traffic, and Operation Stack all systems go.

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
Pepperwort · 20/12/2020 23:33

Re vaccines if they weren’t in the country already, they’ll need special dispensation now to get through.

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 23:34

@wherearemychickens

So it could just have been the variant that happened to be somewhat prevalent, and then conditions that would have been good for any variant have occurred and it's gone 'wahey'?
It is indeed the old

Correlation is not causation

Also see

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

Over a bunch of stuff said in the last 24hrs...

OP posts:
B117 · 20/12/2020 23:43

@TatianaBis

The NERVTAG documents did the rounds this morning.

There’s a very, very long way between: “Which suggests a growth rate of VIU- 202012/01 that is 71% (95%CI: 67%-75%) higher than other variants”

and baldly stating that the strain is: “70% more transmissible” as if it were fact.

There would need to be so much research and analysis before being to make a claim like that.

All there really is to go on is the fact that it has spread quickly in London and the SE. However, it’s flu season, it’s winter now so everyone is indoors and 2nd December everything opened up fast.

I've name changed for this but am an on and off regular on these threads.

People saying stuff like this really boils my piss. What the fuck makes you think the scientists who prepared this briefing haven't done "so much research and analysis" to get these estimates? I know some of the SAGE members professionally, they're bloody good scientists and careful with their statistics.

I want to say something extremely rude, because I've had almost a year of tackling people like you and I'm sick to the back teeth of it, but instead I'll leave you with some reading material from the people who are running the viral genomic sequencing surveillance programme. virological.org/t/preliminary-genomic-characterisation-of-an-emergent-sars-cov-2-lineage-in-the-uk-defined-by-a-novel-set-of-spike-mutations/563

wherearemychickens · 20/12/2020 23:47

B117, why aren't we all in a national lockdown then? If it is 70% more transmissible, that would seem to be sensible?

B117 · 20/12/2020 23:50

@wherearemychickens

B117, why aren't we all in a national lockdown then? If it is 70% more transmissible, that would seem to be sensible?
Political decision.
wherearemychickens · 20/12/2020 23:50

We are Tier 2 next to a Tier 4 local authority, and our local cases aren't much different to the nearest town in Tier 4.

puzzledquiz · 20/12/2020 23:55

Where's Clav when we need her? Surelt she's got something to say? Something positive? Smile

Elephant4 · 21/12/2020 00:04

B117

New mutation may by more virulent.

But if it is not stronger/ more lethal why are we worried?

veeeeh · 21/12/2020 00:08

When you think about it, Brexit is the construct of a few ERG types and their hangers on.

You could not make up this impending disaster for UK.

I think the adults in the room have had enough now. And frankly, I think Brexit will never work anyway, well the way Gov were so exceptionalist about it. Add in Covid and everyone could see see how well THAT was organised by a totally inept administration. Just my view obv.

I am sorry if I offend anyone, but it was a long time coming for EU to call it for what it is.

TatianaBis · 21/12/2020 00:08

It’s not the science I’m taking issue with. It’s taking a figure out of its original context and making a claim way beyond it.

I have never said that the scientists haven’t done enough research/ analysis to get these figures - (and indeed they are estimates which wasn’t clear from Boris) simply that more research will need to be done to get a fuller picture, which the scientists involved have said themselves.

Givemeabreakpls · 21/12/2020 00:12

@Elephant4

B117

New mutation may by more virulent.

But if it is not stronger/ more lethal why are we worried?

More people will become ill and unable to work, with the obvious knock-on effects, I’m guessing.
TatianaBis · 21/12/2020 00:16

I should have added - the scientific work as it is now is still at early stage, there is uncertainty and there are questions.

veeeeh · 21/12/2020 00:18

EU fight back with very reasonable motives. Lol about bloody time too.

TurquoiseBaubles · 21/12/2020 00:20

Jaysus, I knew Boris had shot himself in the foot.

All this new strain bollocks (as I said yesterday) used as an excuse to cover for the fact that they had managed the lockdown/opening up so badly, and now it's a great excuse for everyone to panic Hmm

Fucking stupid thing to do.

And having done it, surely he should be trying to mitigate the disaster by at least talking to the EU about keeping trade routes open for a bit past January 1st. I know the EU wouldn't be keen on an extension, but I bet if he grovelled asked, citing Covid, they would postpone tariffs and controls for a bit.

veeeeh · 21/12/2020 00:32

UK will never grovel.

But the EU fight back is well and truly underway, under cover of darkness and it can legitimately blame it on mutation of virus.

About time this Brexit crap was put to bed anyway. There are no winners for those who are not members of the elite, you know... the ten or so of them lol.

TatianaBis · 21/12/2020 00:34

There’s no doubt there’s a new strain here. But as Dr Erik Voltz from Imperial (who gave a talk on Covid last week) said:

“It is really too early to tell from what we see so far it is growing very quickly, it is growing faster than [previous strains] but it is important to keep an eye on this."

Prof Ball from Nottingham uni commented:

"The amount of evidence in the public domain is woefully inadequate to draw strong or firm opinions on whether the virus has truly increased transmission,"

It has been claimed that unpublished scientific research have come up with figures both higher and far lower than the 70%.

DrBlackbird · 21/12/2020 00:37

Tomorrow will be about the 4th morning that I rush to the stores. Before it was all about tinned and frozen, but tomorrow will be a load of fresh for as long as it lasts. Me and a hundred others queuing? So this is what it truly feels like to be stuck on a relatively small island. With the exits blocked. I'm not liking it even if it's understandable why it's happening.

TurquoiseBaubles · 21/12/2020 01:29

I've always thought that a fair negotiation between the UK and the EU was the way to go, and that compromise could be found.

But after the last few weeks, and in particular the last 24 hours, I'm coming down hard on the side of the EU negotators. I don't think the EU needs the UK half as much as the UK thinks it does, and I'm beginning to think the EU should just tell the UK to fuck off.

Obviously I would like the money currently being spent on negotiations to go directly to mitigate the damage to Ireland and to other EU countries adversely affected.

As to the fishermen; let the UK fishermen fish the UK waters and bring the catch into UK ports and try to sell it there. Good luck to them.

Oldmrswasherwoman · 21/12/2020 01:31

I went to the 24 hr Asda near me when it opened at midnight, it was busier than I anticipated, no idea if thats normal or not but I don't need to scrum it tomorrow now thanks to this thread.

TokyoSushi · 21/12/2020 02:07

Ugh, awake and panicking.

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