Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

OP posts:
Thread gallery
44
Ellie56 · 20/12/2020 22:44

A No 10 spokesman said meetings are happening this evening and tomorrow morning to "ensure robust plans are in place".
Hmm Yeah right.

They wouldn't know a robust plan if it hit them in the face with a wet fish.

EnPoinsettia · 20/12/2020 22:44

Well, now we know what Santa has in his sack for selfish, jingoistic children.

Teenage mutant super-virus and food shortages.

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 22:46

@ListeningQuietly

Now it gets surreal.

My DH and kids have always tolerated my posting on here.
They call it mumsnot and you lot my EU nutters

and then tonights news
and my kids asked me to share pictures of our decorated gingerbread with you all

I think 'tolerated' might be over stating it in this house at times...

I don't see myself as an EU nutter.

I see myself as not a UK nutter...

OP posts:
AuldAlliance · 20/12/2020 22:46

ooh, LQ they are amazing!!

Post of the day, nay the week, the month, perhaps even the year... is the one on the "freight isn't allowed in from France" thread saying Macron is committing "crimes against humanity" by suspending accompanied freight to the UK for 48hrs.

EnPoinsettia · 20/12/2020 22:47

The consequences of bickering over wet fish has now hit them full in face @Ellie56

Still cannot locate arse not elbow.

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 22:48

Alex Macheras @AlexInAir
Breaking: Morocco, El Salvador, Romania, join France, Germany, Italy & a long list of countries banning all travel to/from the UK

Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia has closed its borders to ALL, ending intl travel “due to the #COVID19 mutation found in UK, S Africa & Denmark”

Finland join the long list of countries (including Italy, Germany, France, Kuwait, Turkey, Morocco, Austria & many others in banning all travel to/from the UK because of a new strain of #COVID19 spreading across Britain

emily m @maitlis
“Banned from El Salvador ..”

Damn that EU conspiracy is contagious.

OP posts:
godhelpusall · 20/12/2020 22:49

Saying this is the EU punishing us but actually, we have a strain that is 70% more contagious. Why wouldn't you shut your borders?! We have to try to get to zero Covid as fast and hard as possible

Peregrina · 20/12/2020 22:53

Well Who knew that Saudi Arabia was in the EU!!!

mrslaughan · 20/12/2020 22:54

@godhelpusall
Absolutely agree - hard lockdown, including no school......like NZ , get it as close to zero as possible , and actually a test trace and isolate that works..... but that's too much like hard work - they will just fuck it up more

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 22:55

twitter.com/tom_nuttall/status/1340790330606706690
Interesting live thread from someone on the last flight out of the uk into Germany...

...much confusion over whether some will be denied entry.

OP posts:
TatianaBis · 20/12/2020 22:57

@godhelpusall

Saying this is the EU punishing us but actually, we have a strain that is 70% more contagious. Why wouldn't you shut your borders?! We have to try to get to zero Covid as fast and hard as possible
Which has been around since September...

There is no hard evidence that this variant has the ability to spread faster than any other. I’ve seen no supporting data for the 70% claim.

I do know the U.K. government needed to cover its ass for Covid mismanagement. And it’s blown up in their faces.

wherearemychickens · 20/12/2020 23:01

Where has the 70% figure come from then?

HoneysuckIejasmine · 20/12/2020 23:01

[quote mrslaughan]@godhelpusall
Absolutely agree - hard lockdown, including no school......like NZ , get it as close to zero as possible , and actually a test trace and isolate that works..... but that's too much like hard work - they will just fuck it up more[/quote]
It won't work in UK. Goodwill long destroyed, sense of community long dead, not enough police or army to enforce it, and it would need enforcing.

TheABC · 20/12/2020 23:02

DH is asking after Mumsnet, since I have been winnowing links, stats and good explanations about the latest strain. There are a fuck tonne of intelligent people on here who have taken the time to educate us.

That includes posters to this thread - yes, even the pro-Brexit lot. I am still very happy to eat humble pie 🥧 if they are right.

Hopefully, @TheElementsof Medical will give us another squirrel soon.

TatianaBis · 20/12/2020 23:02

I’ve checked my food order due for delivery 22nd.

Luckily the turkey is coming from Ireland (as apparently is a lot of the stuff). May have to do without creme fraiche, Pie D’Angloys, Ossau Iraty, Bonne Maman chocolate pots.

SwedishEdith · 20/12/2020 23:03

Deborah Hockey
@debbiehockey

1h
Just been turned away from Dover ferry terminal despite having a booking with P&O and living in France. Have only been in UK 24 hours. Now stuck here. Persevering face

ListeningQuietly · 20/12/2020 23:03

Just to remember what we positively want

TatianaBis · 20/12/2020 23:05

@wherearemychickens

Where has the 70% figure come from then?
Boris, where else?
TatianaBis · 20/12/2020 23:07

@ListeningQuietly

Now it gets surreal.

My DH and kids have always tolerated my posting on here.
They call it mumsnot and you lot my EU nutters

and then tonights news
and my kids asked me to share pictures of our decorated gingerbread with you all

Gorgeous. Tell your kids well done! Star
bornatXmastobequiet · 20/12/2020 23:10

@wherearemychickens

Where has the 70% figure come from then?
Someone posted this on another thread. There’s a link in the tweet to the relevant doc mobile.twitter.com/AdamJKucharski/status/1340694809997160452
Pepperwort · 20/12/2020 23:11

Post of the day, nay the week, the month, perhaps even the year... is the one on the "freight isn't allowed in from France" thread saying Macron is committing "crimes against humanity" by suspending accompanied freight to the UK for 48hrs.

Where was that one? I’ve reported a couple of Aibu threads today. It’s a shame international travel wasn’t stopped when the virus first appeared, imo, although I hope arrangements are swiftly made for those trapped in the wrong side from their homes.

Pepperwort · 20/12/2020 23:12

Loving the gingerbread too, thanks for tomorrow’s project!

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 23:12

Nick Eardley @nickeardleybbc
NEW: Govt urging everybody - including hauliers - to avoid Kent ports until further notice

“We are expecting significant disruption"

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 23:15

The government has told lorries bound for Europe not to head towards the route to Europe.

Let that sink in.

OP posts:
Peregrina · 20/12/2020 23:20

It’s a shame international travel wasn’t stopped when the virus first appeared, imo, although I hope arrangements are swiftly made for those trapped in the wrong side from their homes.

And that we had a proper track and trace system, with rigorously enforced isolation - old, old public health knowledge, known since at least the 17th century. One branch of my family came from France ten days ago, and have been going stir crazy since then isolating themselves. A test centre in Oxford is barely busy, about 1 person an hour using it, but is not registered. Meanwhile they could travel as a family to Uxbridge, or Harlow. Absolutely stupid, stupid, stupid.
DD arrived from another EU country last night - had a negative test the day before she left, and will need a test at the airport when (if) she gets back.

Swipe left for the next trending thread