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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 22:00

@Peregrina

My DCs too will be on the receiving end. They have just made it back to the UK for Christmas and might not be able to get back to their jobs again in the New Year. They had planned to go back before the New Year because of Brexit.

I wonder if Johnson is shitting himself right now, or is he going to try to brazen it out? How will he manage with a Cabinet of the talentless?

You know the answer to both those questions. You don't like them. But you know them.
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TokyoSushi · 20/12/2020 22:01

I think it's very much the EU calling the UK's bluff. A little taste of no deal as an early Christmas present perhaps.

I can imagine Downing Street are like headless chickens right now, and all the while the clock runs down.

Peregrina · 20/12/2020 22:04

I am not sure that Nicola Sturgeon calling for an Extension will help. As far as Johnson and chums are concerned, she might as well have horns and a tail.

OchonAgusOchonO · 20/12/2020 22:11

And I expect at this stage the EU would tell him to piss off if he asked for an extension.

ListeningQuietly · 20/12/2020 22:12

Suddenly its top story on the BBC
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55389505

The penny is dropping
(but at the speed of a magnet down a copper pipe)

Continental truckers will not want to travel here if they have a real fear of getting marooned.
[Hmm] bastards quoting me without credit Wink

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 22:14

@TokyoSushi

I think it's very much the EU calling the UK's bluff. A little taste of no deal as an early Christmas present perhaps.

I can imagine Downing Street are like headless chickens right now, and all the while the clock runs down.

Johnson gets on the phones:

"So Michael what do I do now? Michael? Michael you there?"
Hang up tone

"Hi Dom. Its Boris here. Could you give me a call back when you get this message. Its kind of urgent"
"Hi Dom. I know I've rung 34 times already this evening already, but I could really do with you calling me back"
"Dom? Please. I'm desparate. Carrie even says she's sorry and wants to be friends again"

"Matttttttt. My best bud. Do you have any ideas?"
Sound of manic laughing

"Priti of course! You are always full of ideas. Was this really what you met when you said about controlling our borders? Oh, this is what you wanted.. oh. nevermind"

"Jacob! What do you mean, let them starve or use their other money?"

"Rishi, Rishi, Rishi"
"I'm sorry Rishi can't come to the phone right now he has a leadership campaign to launch"

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ListeningQuietly · 20/12/2020 22:22

I know I was a PITA last night
but I'm in full on gallows humour tonight

The UK voted for this
we on this thread assumed it would hit after Christmas
we were out by a few days

but we were right
and the rest of the country is about to hear I told you so

Mistigri · 20/12/2020 22:23

I don't think this has anything to do with Brexit.

The U.K. government announced at a panicked press conference that a MUTANT VIRUS was spreading like wildfire. Their client journalists splashed it all over the front pages.

WTAF did they think would happen?!

It's not just the EU closing borders with the U.K. but Israel, some Middle Eastern states, and no doubt others tomorrow.

bornatXmastobequiet · 20/12/2020 22:26

@Peregrina

Does anyone think like me, that it is the EU finally calling the UK's bluff?
Indeedy.
RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 22:27

@Mistigri

I don't think this has anything to do with Brexit.

The U.K. government announced at a panicked press conference that a MUTANT VIRUS was spreading like wildfire. Their client journalists splashed it all over the front pages.

WTAF did they think would happen?!

It's not just the EU closing borders with the U.K. but Israel, some Middle Eastern states, and no doubt others tomorrow.

See I think that putting MUTANT VIRUS on the front of newspapers HAD to provoke a response. The Uk government just completely over looked this.

The EU saw it and went WTAF. We don't have any choice but actually this is quite useful so we might as well make the most of the opportunity.

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bornatXmastobequiet · 20/12/2020 22:29

I wonder what the USA will do.

SwedishEdith · 20/12/2020 22:30

We really should have closed our borders ourselves. That's what a good neighbour would do once they found out this was spreading so fast.

I do wonder if it's also a convenient time to test some systems though.

Peregrina · 20/12/2020 22:31

Countries closing their borders for a couple of days might not be anything to do with Brexit, but extra traffic coming in now because they haven't the foggiest what the rules will be in less than two weeks time, with the Christmas Holidays in between, are most definitely a product of Brexit.

Johnson with all his bombast, World Beating this, Last Gasp that, the Cummings debacle has destroyed much of the trust that the public might have had in him.

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 22:32

@bornatXmastobequiet

I wonder what the USA will do.
Well Donnie might want to cash in for a couple of weeks. But thats only good til the 20th anyway...
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Peregrina · 20/12/2020 22:33

I wonder what the USA will do.

Will Trump organise an airlift, or will he go mysteriously quiet?

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 22:34

@SwedishEdith

We really should have closed our borders ourselves. That's what a good neighbour would do once they found out this was spreading so fast.

I do wonder if it's also a convenient time to test some systems though.

Well quite.

"oooo we've got a mutant virus running around. but please don't go on holiday" was as good as it got.

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bornatXmastobequiet · 20/12/2020 22:35

NYT reporting mutant virus. Includes a snippet I haven’t seen elsewhere (though TBF I haven’t looked very far):

Transport officials in England said that they would increase the number of police officers monitoring hubs like railway stations to ensure only essential journeys were being taken.

ListeningQuietly · 20/12/2020 22:35

Now it gets surreal.

My DH and kids have always tolerated my posting on here.
They call it mumsnot and you lot my EU nutters

and then tonights news
and my kids asked me to share pictures of our decorated gingerbread with you all

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
bornatXmastobequiet · 20/12/2020 22:35

Oops forgot link
www.nytimes.com/live/2020/12/20/world/covid-19-coronavirus

ListeningQuietly · 20/12/2020 22:36

..

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
bornatXmastobequiet · 20/12/2020 22:39

Proud to be an EU nutter!

Elephant4 · 20/12/2020 22:40

I'm not a regular on here. But they look delicious and very beautiful - LQ and have made me feel finally a teeny bit Christmasy.

Mistigri · 20/12/2020 22:41

*See I think that putting MUTANT VIRUS on the front of newspapers HAD to provoke a response. The Uk government just completely over looked this.
*
Absolutely this. No sane government can look at a neighbouring state yelling about a MUTANT VIRUS and do nothing.

Other governments also have electorates and public opinion to manage.

TokyoSushi · 20/12/2020 22:44

Unless this is already so hideous that a tiny taste of no deal makes them desperately re-think and a deal is done?

We cab only hope!