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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 21:04

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Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
niynycachu · 20/12/2020 21:06

I've been following these threads for a few years but don't think I've ever posted (I'm not as knowledgeable as most of you). I've been counting down the days to the 31st with absolute dread but tonight I feel like crying. Thanks to you guys I have a reasonably stocked larder and 3 freezers with things we can throw together to make "interesting" meals. I'm planning on shopping tomorrow for the fresh stuff I need for Christmas day. I had planned this for Wednesday/early Thursday but am bringing it forward and hoping the fresh stuff won't go off before Friday.

My local facebook groups and pages are very quiet about anything Brexit related (I'm in a leave voting town). Actually, they're very quiet about anything that really has an impact on our locality but up in arms about BLM and the American election etc. I'm in South Wales so in level 4 lockdown in one of the worst affected areas. I imagine once people realise there may be shortages of fresh food in the next few days supermarkets will be carnage soon. DP used to roll his eyes at me pre March because I was buying extras every week. He was bloody glad when we went into lockdown and we could avoid the panics in the supermarkets.

Will be stocking up on cheese and alcohol as well tomorrow.

My username translates to we're in the shit by the way.

Thank you everyone for your informed and intelligent analysis over the last few years. You put things far more eloquently than I ever could.

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 21:15

@DGRossetti

.
I hope that she didn't film it last week thats for sure!
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Sostenueto · 20/12/2020 21:16

Eurotunnel shutting to all traffic at 10 pm.

Sostenueto · 20/12/2020 21:17

Cobra meeting tonight

HappyWinter · 20/12/2020 21:21

@niynycachu Good luck, I hope the lockdown isn't for long. I'm in the NW and we've been under restrictions for ages, it's tough but you get used to it (I hope you don't have to get used to it!). I'm new to the thread but it's great. I've been worried about Brexit for ages, but not found anyone else who feels the same on a practical level.

TokyoSushi · 20/12/2020 21:23

Cobra tomorrow I think Sos, but 'other meetings' tonight. Twitter political journos do indeed seem to think that this, everybody bringing down the shutters, has taken the gvmt by surprise.

I feel a bit sick. It seems like things are quickly running out of control.

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 21:26

Ooooo well thats woken up Johnson. Its serious enough for him to chair a Cobra meeting.

Kate Devlin @_katedevlin
Breaking - Boris Johnson to chair meeting of gov emergency Cobra ctte tomorrow as Covid travel bans hit freight.

“The pm will chair a COBR meeting tomorrow to discuss the situation regarding international travel, in particular the steady flow of freight into and out of the UK.”

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niynycachu · 20/12/2020 21:27

@HappyWinter I've been living as if we never really came out of the first lockdown anyway so going into level 4 hasn't made much difference on a practical day to day basis. I'm self employed, and while some of my clients came back in person in August many stayed online anyway.

I know a couple of people in real life who are as worried as me but most around here just want Brexit done. I think they've actually moved on and don't think about it anymore, other than expressing boredom when the subject is brought up.

I've no doubt that whatever shit happens, Boris and co (and most of the papers) will blame it on the nasty EU and they'll lap it up.

All4Love · 20/12/2020 21:34

No Deal

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
OhYouBadBadKitten · 20/12/2020 21:36

ah shit.

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 21:37

Simon Jack @BBCSimonJack
Freight crisis. France blocks lorry movements from UK for 48 hrs due to new COVID strain alarm. Government caught off guard by this. Ministers and officials just beginning to assess the situation. DFT in charge tonight but will be a Cabinet Office convened meeting tomorrow am..1/

...Usual volume through Dover alone is 9-10,000 lorries a day going in both directions although often slower on a Sunday. Haulage industry chief tells me “Just when you thought it couldn’t get any worse – disaster on top of disaster - I fear for supermarket supply chains...2/

Although freight coming from France is allowed through, haulage chief says “many will be reluctant to make the crossing to UK if they can’t get back given there is already congestion" End

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Peregrina · 20/12/2020 21:37

So the ERG have won.

ListeningQuietly · 20/12/2020 21:40

Its surreal, I'm in Tier 2 :
I wandered around the Winchester Christmas market today listening to the buskers and picking up fripperies as if neither COVID or Brexit were happening.

I am shocked that they stopped the trucks
but I cannot blame any of the EU countries from saying
fuck you, this is what border controls feel like

and if a couple of days of carnage
on top of half the country in Tier 42 / 57 / choose your question / variety
brings the government to their senses
it might help

but sadly I still think that No Deal is the only stake to the heart that will work on the ERG

niynycachu · 20/12/2020 21:40

Lots more alcohol on my shopping list tomorrow then.

Who was it posted something about Zaphod Beeblebrox's sunglasses here a week or so ago? I want a pair!

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 21:40

Evening Standard @standardnews
A No 10 spokesman said meetings are happening this evening and tomorrow morning to "ensure robust plans are in place".

I am not sure I've heard anything so funny in about 4 and a half years!

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Peregrina · 20/12/2020 21:44

Does anyone think like me, that it is the EU finally calling the UK's bluff?

ListeningQuietly · 20/12/2020 21:45

@Peregrina

Does anyone think like me, that it is the EU finally calling the UK's bluff?
DEFINITELY
PawFives · 20/12/2020 21:45

Oh God, I just feel terrified it’s spinning out of control now and even if the government finally woke up and wanted to stop it I don’t think they can.

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 21:46

@Peregrina

Does anyone think like me, that it is the EU finally calling the UK's bluff?
That's where I am.

How can the UK protest when they've told their own citizens to not move or travel? The EU are just protecting their borders.

Its a stroke of genuis tbh. Its just unfortunate I'm on the recieving end of it!

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TheABC · 20/12/2020 21:51

Welcome to the endgame.

At this stage, they can scream about evil Europe as much as they want. It won't change the reality on the ground.

ListeningQuietly · 20/12/2020 21:56

Anybody who thinks COVID is the driving factor is asleep
www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/20/uk-faces-brexit-limbo-after-talks-deadline-missed

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 20/12/2020 21:56

Nicola Sturgeon calling for Boris to request an extension.

Peregrina · 20/12/2020 21:57

My DCs too will be on the receiving end. They have just made it back to the UK for Christmas and might not be able to get back to their jobs again in the New Year. They had planned to go back before the New Year because of Brexit.

I wonder if Johnson is shitting himself right now, or is he going to try to brazen it out? How will he manage with a Cabinet of the talentless?

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